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Author Topic: The way it should be. Dam* the gov  (Read 1064 times)

Online iddee

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The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« on: September 04, 2017, 05:58:25 pm »
"Here was the America of the ideal: one nation, indivisible. A republic of citizens looking out for each other. No politics or polarization. No fake news or social media bubbles. A crisis all could see, and a response all wanted to be part of."

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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2017, 09:27:38 pm »
What are you turning liberal now?
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Offline eltalia

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2017, 09:46:29 pm »
(edit)
What...!..are you turning liberal now?

... tis a grey/gray area under blue skies - a stark rainbow of metaphors.
                                           :cheesy: :grin:

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Online iddee

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2017, 10:06:11 pm »
No, this is the conservative way. The liberal way is to send someone else's money and supplies, or scream at the gov to do more when it has already done billions.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline eltalia

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2017, 12:54:34 am »
No, this is the conservative way. The liberal way is to [edit]spend[/edit] someone else's money and supplies, or scream at the gov to do more when it has already done billions.

... spending, g'mnt style, is expotential growth. A nation cannot
grow - or recover, as is the USA plight - touting extending a time
warp. Like, the postwar '50s are dead in the water, man!

I guess you would not be open to implementing the
Universal Basic Income within the USA, ever?

Bill

Online iddee

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2017, 06:23:22 am »
Basic income equals ""All stop working and the gov will support you?""

Where is the gov going to get the money?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2017, 08:43:24 am »
Universal Basic Income within the USA, ever?
We have had it for many years.  You just have to be old enough to get it.  It is one of the great liberal ideas that many conservatives enjoy.  Similar to universal health care.  I think we would be better off with universal employment after you hit retirement age.  When you hit that age and you want to slow down you get a government job.  It pays the same as SSI but you get the pleasure of pi$$ing off all the people younger than you.  You still will get fat but not as much because you will have some activity and a purpose in life.  When you get to the point where you can't take care of yourself you get one month of quality time with the family and treated like a king with servants.  At the end of the month you take a pill and get a free headstone.  Your heirs get every penny you squandered away without being taxed.  It doesn't matter how much it is.
If you choose to stay in the private sector and continue working you still can, just like now.
If you did your financial planning and put away enough in a fund that will support you without the government job you can.  Just like it is now.  You can travel all over the world bragging how well you did for yourself.  However when you can't take care of yourself it is the same for you.  You get one month of quality time with the family and then take a pill.
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Online iddee

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2017, 08:51:12 am »
NO, NO, NO!!!!!

When I can't take care of myself, I want the pill the same day. I have been self supportive since about the age of 6 or 8, and want to be that way until the end.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2017, 09:11:04 am »
When I can't take care of myself, I want the pill the same day.

I hear you.  The family needs the time to say good by.  There also needs to be a time of observation to make sure the cause is not a curable disease.
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Offline Psparr

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2017, 12:48:28 pm »
Ace, seeing that your not much help on these kinds of topics, maybe it's time for the pill?

Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2017, 05:11:16 pm »
I can't leave it all up to Cider to keep Walley going.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2017, 05:19:53 pm »
 :cheesy:
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2017, 03:00:03 pm »
>What are you turning liberal now?

Helping people is not a Liberal idea.

Liberal way:  Steal Michael's money and give it to someone we think needs it more.
Conservative way:  Let Michael help however, whoever he wishes to either by direct help, money, charity etc.

The problem is that a system (government etc.) can only be just or unjust.  A person can be merciful or unmerciful.  A person can judge whether they are helping and stop when they think they are not.  A system has to treat everyone by a fixed set of rules.  If that set of rules is that you forcibly take from one person what is theirs and give it to another person, that is unjust.  It's called stealing.
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2017, 03:25:48 pm »
>What are you turning liberal now?

Helping people is not a Liberal idea.

Liberal way:  Steal Michael's money and give it to someone we think needs it more.
Conservative way:  Let Michael help however, whoever he wishes to either by direct help, money, charity etc.

The problem is that a system (government etc.) can only be just or unjust.  A person can be merciful or unmerciful.  A person can judge whether they are helping and stop when they think they are not.  A system has to treat everyone by a fixed set of rules.  If that set of rules is that you forcibly take from one person what is theirs and give it to another person, that is unjust.  It's called stealing.
Very well said...
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline eltalia

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2017, 04:15:13 pm »
Uh huh Michael, not "stealing"... more like "milking the cash cow", and we line up for
the opportunity.

You want  a car, you know it burns money... you buy it anyway.
You want a paid job, you know wages leak as they accumulate... you take the job anyway.

Tis all part of chewin' grass and passing methane, Michael.
Moooooooooooooo....moooooooo^

Bill

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(edited taipoe)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 05:14:07 pm by eltalia »

Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2017, 08:54:46 pm »
If that set of rules is that you forcibly take from one person what is theirs and give it to another person, that is unjust.  It's called stealing.

So Does that mean you will not collect SSI because in your words it is stealing?
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Online iddee

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2017, 09:27:12 pm »
Ace, prove that what I paid in plus the matching would be less than I draw, after it being invested at a reasonable return all those years, and I'll return the difference.

No, SSI is like Obama care. It is a forced insurance premium.

Hey, Ace, with all the talk of illegals lately, tell me this. A few million illegals have been paying SSI through their employment on a fake social security card for the last 24 years, or more. Where did that money go when there was no account for it to be accredited to. Is that where the huge increase in the worth of the Clintons and Obamas came from?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2017, 09:29:29 pm »
It went to Putin's Russian bank.  That is how he bought Trump.
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Online iddee

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2017, 09:38:44 pm »
Probably, through the Clinton foundation, to be used to buy our uranium. Good catch there, Ace.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2017, 08:44:58 am »
Where did that money go when there was no account for it to be accredited to.

I thought my other answer was funnier but the reality is it goes to the US Treasury.  There are no separate accounts.  From there it can be redirected by the congress or the President.  You can go back much farther than 24 years to find that each President has redirected the money into military spending.  Keep in mind that each one of these operations were not budgeted for yet more and more continue.  You might also note that each one of these operations have funneled billions of dollars to a beneficiary in the one percent bracket.  Some were elected officials.  Cheney is a prime example.  Now it is Trump.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2017, 09:16:04 am »
Ace, prove that what I paid in plus the matching would be less than I draw, after it being invested at a reasonable return all those years, and I'll return the difference.

I needed time to find the data...

Looking at my SSI statement I have been taxed a little over 100K so far.  Assuming we were in the same tax bracket you must be less because you are about 8 years older than me but that really doesn't matter because the scale is not even close.  I would say based on you reveling that you just had your 11th stent put in that you burned up what you paid in taxes in the first couple of years of drawing SSI and Medicare.  Practically everyone in your age group has drawn more than they put in.  That is pretty much black and white and easy to prove.  Now add to the fact that it takes a lot of government employees to keep track and send me statements every year or so.  What do you think the costs would be for that and in your case paying your medical bills and sending you checks?
Now supposing we were forced to put that same money into a retirement account that could not be touched until retirement or death.  You would burn through what was saved in maybe five years of retirement and then be penniless.  Then there is the problem of funding the military because those taxes would be lost to the Treasury pot.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2017, 12:48:29 pm »
>So Does that mean you will not collect SSI because in your words it is stealing?

I've been filing income tax and paying into SS since I was 13... I think they should give some of it back eventually.  That was in 1960s dollars...  candy bars were a nickle and a root beer at the local Rexall Drug store was also a nickel.  Minimum wage was $1.16 an hour.  That's about $9 an hour in 2017 dollars.  I just looked at my up to date statement and so far I've paid in $140,000 into SS and my employers (who, of course, allowed for this when they hired me, so actually *I* earned this as well) paid in $112,000 for a total of $252,000 so they should pay me back (adjusted for inflation) $2,268,000.00.  That's not allowing for interest since they used my money for all those years.... but I suppose not all of that was earned when a nickel would buy a candy bar, so let's just say $2 million.  Yes, they stole it and spent it.  Maybe they will give some of it back.
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Offline gww

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2017, 02:12:27 pm »
To micheals point, My question would be, if $9 an our would equal min wage and lets say you made $20 an hour for many of those years, do you now have your two million above and beyond the two million that the gov has of yours?  If you made double, it should have been easy to get the second two million.  Even if you do have the second two million, most did not when left on their own.  You could say that that is their fault but it was so maby peoples fault before ssi that ssi has been a real bennifit for americans since it was started.  It was not only a bennifit to those recieving it but also to those who were working making the things that those recieving it bought.

I have not been to a lot of countries but the one I have been to and what I see of the others, even with the wrongs, american living standard is very nice and part of that is due to things like ssi.  And that is the reciever and the worker.
Cheers
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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2017, 02:28:21 pm »
I've been filing income tax and paying into SS since I was 13... I think they should give some of it back eventually.
They will if you choose to draw from it.  There are two things that are not being grasped here.  All of your money has been spent on another generation there is no account with money in it.  Secondly you can not call SSI and Medicare a financial investment it is a loss it always will be.  If you were to put the same amount of money in the bank that you contributed to SSI the value would be less today because no bank pays in interest equal to or greater than inflation.  There is always a net loss.  Can't be any other way unless you risk the principal.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 04:48:54 pm by Acebird »
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2017, 02:36:12 pm »
Brian,
I agree, it will be less than inflation but it will be millions more than I will ever get back from the fed and the remainder would go to whoever I decide.
Jim
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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2017, 05:20:31 pm »
Brian,
I agree, it will be less than inflation but it will be millions more than I will ever get back from the fed ...
This part depends on when you choose to draw and how long you live after that.  The way it has been going for most people if you take retirement at retirement age you will live long enough to draw way more than you put in.  If it were not that way then there would be no concern for SSI drying up ever.  As Michael said your employer put in as much as you do.  If you were just putting money equal to what the government takes into a bank account your retirement fund would dry up a lot sooner because there would be no employer contribution.
Modern medicine has caused the financial problem.  When SSI was drawn up people lived 1-2 years past retirement, some maybe 5 years.  Today it is more like 20 or 25 years past retirement age.  If your carrier was military you will live longer in retirement then you will have been employed, assuming you got to retire.  These are financial nightmares for the young people supporting the old.
Eventually you are going see retirement age go into the 70's or more.  I think this will happen pretty quick.  I also see in the future where assisted end of life will become more popular.  Only the well to do will spend 5-10 years in a nursing home.
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Online iddee

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2017, 05:39:38 pm »
You are also forgetting the death and disability benefits. My brother in law had polio and never worked a day in his life. He still drew off his father's account for over 50 years.

My sister
's first husband died in a car wreck when her daughter was 2. She drew a check from his SS until her daughter was 18, then 4 more years until she finished school. "college"

SSI.... Social Security INSURANCE, the key word being insurance.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2017, 05:57:10 pm »
I am aware of survivors benefits.  My brother draws because his wife died of cancer.  Because it is all one big pot I don't see what difference it would make if it came from welfare.  I would guess that this is a very small draw on the system.  It is when the majority of people live a lot longer in retirement then they ever did before that the system is heading for a crash.
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Offline Psparr

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2017, 06:12:39 pm »
It's a giant Ponzi scheme. One we would be sitting in jail for had it been our idea.

Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2017, 09:10:59 pm »
It's a giant Ponzi scheme.

It kinda is and it is driven by old farts that are not contributing anymore.  Maybe you should not be allowed to vote when you reach retirement age.  How do you think that will change things.  I am all for setting an age limit on holding office.  68 sounds like a good number.  When you reach 68 you can't run for office anymore.  That aught to get rid of a lot of dead wood.
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Offline gww

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2017, 10:51:34 pm »
The uaw made 65 the threshold where you had to retire and air plane pilots was some where in that age group where they were forced to retire.
Cheers
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Offline beecanbee

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2017, 12:20:42 am »
I believe iddee has said it twice now - SSI has that I in it - Insurance, which makes it NOT a Ponzi scheme, but rather an insurance program.

It's a giant Ponzi scheme. One we would be sitting in jail for had it been our idea.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2017, 08:43:07 am »
I believe iddee has said it twice now - SSI has that I in it - Insurance, which makes it NOT a Ponzi scheme, but rather an insurance program.

We all know that it was set up as insurance but there is two things different.  The "Terms of the Policy" can change after you sign up and your premium does not go to you it goes to someone else.  Actually there might be a third you have to die to collect.
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2017, 03:15:09 pm »
>So Does that mean you will not collect SSI because in your words it is stealing?

I've been filing income tax and paying into SS since I was 13... I think they should give some of it back eventually.  That was in 1960s dollars...  candy bars were a nickle and a root beer at the local Rexall Drug store was also a nickel.  Minimum wage was $1.16 an hour.  That's about $9 an hour in 2017 dollars.  I just looked at my up to date statement and so far I've paid in $140,000 into SS and my employers (who, of course, allowed for this when they hired me, so actually *I* earned this as well) paid in $112,000 for a total of $252,000 so they should pay me back (adjusted for inflation) $2,268,000.00.  That's not allowing for interest since they used my money for all those years.... but I suppose not all of that was earned when a nickel would buy a candy bar, so let's just say $2 million.  Yes, they stole it and spent it.  Maybe they will give some of it back.
Don't count on getting much of it back.
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Offline eltalia

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2017, 06:37:53 am »
"Don't count on getting much of it back. "

That tbere is just outright cruel, Eric... shame on you ;-(

Bill

Offline beecanbee

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2017, 04:53:37 am »
I believe iddee has said it twice now - SSI has that I in it - Insurance, which makes it NOT a Ponzi scheme, but rather an insurance program.

We all know that it was set up as insurance but there is two things different.  The "Terms of the Policy" can change after you sign up and your premium does not go to you it goes to someone else.  Actually there might be a third you have to die to collect.

Now now... you know that nobody reads the fine print... they just pretend to.  And with all insurance - your premiums are never set aside for you - but go into that big pool to be paid out to those who hit the jackpot with their accident, illness, misfortune, etc.  Not one iota of difference - except being mandatory as part payment for living in a civil society.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2017, 08:42:03 am »
And with all insurance - your premiums are never set aside for you -
Careful with the word "all" and "never".  You can use insurance as a tax free bank account.  Let's say your policy costs 10 dollars for life insurance.  You can put in 15 and that will accumulate with interest.  The interest is not taxed until you draw.  It is like an IRA.  The insurance has advantages over the IRA with one exception.  An IRA in a bank is insured.  The money in the insurance company is not.  Kind of ironic.
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Offline beecanbee

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2017, 09:13:04 pm »
And with all insurance - your premiums are never set aside for you -
Careful with the word "all" and "never".  You can use insurance as a tax free bank account.  Let's say your policy costs 10 dollars for life insurance.  You can put in 15 and that will accumulate with interest.  The interest is not taxed until you draw.  It is like an IRA.  The insurance has advantages over the IRA with one exception.  An IRA in a bank is insured.  The money in the insurance company is not.  Kind of ironic.

Thanks... i have been learned!
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2017, 05:50:03 am »
"Don't count on getting much of it back. "

That tbere is just outright cruel, Eric... shame on you ;-(

Bill
Not meant to be cruel... Just realistic. Compared to a private retirement account, Social Insecurity is a terrible deal. 100% death tax, and pathetic interest rates. People who say it is a good program I ask how many other savings accounts have you opened in the government's name?

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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2017, 07:15:04 am »
"People who say it is a good program I ask how many other savings accounts have you opened in the government's name?"
I will be using that one in the future whenever I hear the same. Thanks
Jim
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2017, 08:17:01 am »
"People who say it is a good program I ask how many other savings accounts have you opened in the government's name?"
I will be using that one in the future whenever I hear the same. Thanks
Jim
Your quite welcome
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline kathyp

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2017, 11:28:09 am »
I am always amused when I hear liberal billionaires say "tax me more", but when they look for a place to put their money, they put it in tax-exempt foundations.  If they really believed the government was the best place to invest, they'd write a check to the IRS and let the government use the money for....good.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2017, 01:31:53 pm »
One big difference between Social Security and insurance is that insurance companied are required by law to maintain reserves.  Reserves are defined as:
Definition
A stated amount or percent of liquid assets that an insurer must have on hand that will satisfy all claims from in-force insurance policies and other outstanding liabilities. Reserve limits are established by state regulatory agencies which calculate reserves as a percent of the total present value of in-force insurance less the present value of future premiums to be received plus interest.

Some states' insurance regulators are very strict, while others are pretty loose on enforcement of the laws.  One horror story I heard about involved an insurance company that bought some land in Arizona, which was a legal use of reserves, called it a gold mine, moved some dirt around to comply with laws on development, paid for moving the dirt by a company owned by officers of the company, then sold the "gold mine" to another insurance company controlled by the same officers, and on and on, then walked away with a fortune, leaving a new slate of officers with reserves that looked good on paper as reserves. 

I think this is basically what the government has done with Social Security.  It has the "reserves" held in a "lock box" (where did we hear that?) that contains the deed to a "gold mine" in Arizona that's nothing but a few acres of dirt.  The "insurance commissioner" (politicians) is happy and blind to the situation.  How about you guys?  Are you happy with having a share of a "gold mine" in Arizona?
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Offline gww

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2017, 02:21:46 pm »
Dallas
I think the savings and loan bail out during the bush senior administration was in part due to the same land speculation and the inflating the price and taking out loans to buy.  But that time the land was increasing so fast due to oil well speculation.  I saw in missouri that a guy bought a federal building for a couple hundred thousand and sold it back to the postal sevice for 3.5 million and he bought it and sold it and all the paper work was done on the same day.  You would not believe how many big shots in the auto industry were sold parts of the auto industery and than selling back to that same industery at a premium.

I would like to buy a hundred thousand dollar piece of property and sell it for a million to someone that can get a laon for a million on my hundred thousand piece of property.  I would care less if he pays back his loan after he got it.  I might even give him a garrentee of a couple hundred thousand to make him feel better when his credit rating is hurt a little but only if it wasn't eventually picked up by the tax payers.  Aw heck, I will even go ahead and garrentee it even if the tax payers pick it up.
Cheers
gww