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Online cidersabuzzin

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DT's reticence
« on: August 13, 2017, 06:58:09 pm »
Why doe's DT find it so hard to condemn white supremacists, KKK, neo-cons, et al re what happened in Charlottesville VR. Is it because he relies on them for votes?
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Offline iddee

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2017, 07:10:26 pm »
He doesn't find it hard at all, when it is appropriate.

Unite had a permit to demonstrate. The attackers did not. There would have been no confrontation at all if they had been allowed to do what they had the legal right to do, without trash coming in and attacking them illegally. They were only defending themselves. It makes me sick to my stomach to read all the lies told in the media about so called "white supremacists" and nothing about antifa and blm attacking a legal and peaceful demonstration and the legals getting all the blame.
Trump condemned all of them, not just the left's whipping boys.
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2017, 09:19:19 pm »
The bottom line is that it's possible to find what someone else has to say abhorrent and at the same time stand up for their right to say it.

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Offline kathyp

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2017, 10:46:19 pm »
Quote
Why doe's DT find it so hard to condemn white supremacists, KKK, neo-cons, et al re what happened in Charlottesville VR. Is it because he relies on them for votes?

There aren't that many of them to have someone depend on them for votes.
If the radical and violent left had not attacked, the march would have come and gone with little notice.  In no way do I condone running over people, but the fact is, there would have been no violence without the left.  These same groups are shutting down speakers they disagree with, attacking groups other than white separatist groups, and rioting all over the country.
They are well organized and well funded.

The real question is why are they being sent out to engage in violence?

Most people on the right, or those who voted for Trump reject the message of the KKK and their offshoots.  They did not vote for Trump because they or he are racist.  They voted for him because the path of the left has led us to destruction and anyone that offered a different path was worth a try.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2017, 03:25:30 am »
He doesn't find it hard at all, when it is appropriate.

Unite had a permit to demonstrate. The attackers did not. There would have been no confrontation at all if they had been allowed to do what they had the legal right to do, without trash coming in and attacking them illegally. They were only defending themselves. It makes me sick to my stomach to read all the lies told in the media about so called "white supremacists" and nothing about antifa and blm attacking a legal and peaceful demonstration and the legals getting all the blame.
Trump condemned all of them, not just the left's whipping boys.

Driving a car at speed into a crowd "just defending themselves"? I have no truck with either side, but would have thought condemnation was appropriate to both!.........unless I needed the support of one side or the another. Can you imagine if Muslims had been involved, undoubtedly "fire and fury" would have been involved........but then again that reminds me of another  incident .......[ /quote]
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The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe iddee too, so long as he don't go too far to the  right and fall off the edge...but I think maybe some comb over artists already have!.....

Offline iddee

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2017, 07:13:47 am »
""Can you imagine if Muslims had been involved, undoubtedly "fire and fury" would have been involved..""

If you aren't familiar with it, look up the word asinine. To compare his reactions to muslims with that of a moron with nuclear power and threatening to use it is exactly that, but neither fits this conversation. We are talking about a few rightwing extremists against many paid leftist thugs that want to disrupt the American way.
As Kathy said, had the left stayed away and let the few do what they had the legal right to do, no violence would have taken place and no one would have been hurt. It would have been a "nothing" happening.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2017, 12:39:52 pm »

Quote
Driving a car at speed into a crowd "just defending themselves"? I have no truck with either side, but would have thought condemnation was appropriate to both!.........unless I needed the support of one side or the another. Can you imagine if Muslims had been involved, undoubtedly "fire and fury" would have been involved........but then again that reminds me of another  incident .......

That is a separate issue and no one can condone the kids actions.  The issue here is that one side wants one group condemned, while the other group, which has been violent all over the country, gets a pass.  There were peaceful people on both sides.  The violence started with the radical leftist groups and was allowed to incite violence either because the cops chose to let it happen, or they were unprepared to step in and stop it.  The violence started way before this kid ran his car into those people. 

I find the KKK and their buddies disgusting.  That said, they have a constitutional right to march.  They did all that they were required to do to have a legal gathering including talking to the police about security. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 04:53:33 pm »
The worst thing you could to to a KKK protest is ignore it.  If the media had not shown up and the leftist counter-protesters had not showed up the KKK would go home early as a failure...  People should stop giving them what they want.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2017, 05:06:46 pm »
Quote
People should stop giving them what they want.

Exactly.  Who had heard of Spencer before the left dragged him into the public light?  The march the night before made no news because the counter protesters had not arrived. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline beecanbee

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2017, 05:38:31 pm »
He doesn't find it hard at all, when it is appropriate.

Unite had a permit to demonstrate. The attackers did not. There would have been no confrontation at all if they had been allowed to do what they had the legal right to do, without trash coming in and attacking them illegally. They were only defending themselves. It makes me sick to my stomach to read all the lies told in the media about so called "white supremacists" and nothing about antifa and blm attacking a legal and peaceful demonstration and the legals getting all the blame.
Trump condemned all of them, not just the left's whipping boys.

When a demonstration permit is issued, no counter protest permit is needed.  To require one would stifle free speech.  That the groups which obtained the permit showed up with items in violation of their permit (torches, weapons, shields) spoke to their understanding that they both sought and expected (shields, military grade helmets and body gear) violence.

From the videos, it is clear that most of the demonstrators were not armed, so it appears to me that a smaller group went prepared for violence.

Me thinks you have a rather twisted view of who were the attackers.  Surely there were illegal actions on both sides.  The police and the FBI will no doubt make further arrests based upon what they saw, and video evidence.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2017, 08:54:02 pm »
Quote
When a demonstration permit is issued, no counter protest permit is needed.

Requiring any permit is questionable, but it does allow for traffic control and police protection.  As to your statement, you base this on which VA state law? 

here is my reasoning on the violence.  1. the bottles of urine and feces are trademarks of Antifa.  You might be able to urinate quickly into a bottle, but filling one with crap takes some planning.  2.  the violence at events with which they disagree is a trade mark.  They have done it at Trump rallies, at college speeches, and at various other gatherings that had nothing to do with the KKK.  3.  The gathering by the anti statue removal people the night before...and they outnumber the Klan types many times over, was peaceful and didn't make a blip on the news.  4.  witness statements are now coming out about the violence and the police (lack of) response.  They are from observers, not participants and the most interesting came from the ACLU today.

ACLU statement in here.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/laurettabrown/2017/08/14/mcauliffe-aclu-clash-over-police-restraint-in-charlottesville-n2368455
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2017, 09:41:55 pm »
The worst thing you could to to a KKK protest is ignore it.  If the media had not shown up and the leftist counter-protesters had not showed up the KKK would go home early as a failure...  People should stop giving them what they want.
Spoken like a true Libertarian. Well said. I said a long time ago that terrorism thrives on a 24 hour news cycle that can't broadcast any good news because bad news sells better.

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Offline herbhome

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2017, 01:08:19 am »
The worst thing you could to to a KKK protest is ignore it.  If the media had not shown up and the leftist counter-protesters had not showed up the KKK would go home early as a failure...  People should stop giving them what they want.

Hear here!

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Offline eltalia

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2017, 04:48:25 am »
G'day y'all..
What I know about USA politics would fill volumes, yet to engage beyond a single comment
in a USA dominated site is folly well removed from my survival frame, which here in BMA is
bee orientated.
Yet trust the "Orish" in me I drop in in to say... should any of the BKs in residence find
_any_ argument to assuage the Trump's walk away from Charlottesville.. then may that little
tying be the seed of your owned misgivings next Spring. And only beecause you understand
JackShite about anything!
BUT ...from that little thing big things grow[1].
Donald is the walking talking edjut of current global politics, jive with him to your own
inevitable  CCD. That man (?) redefines baboon speak!

[1] https://m.you tube.com/watch?v=6_ndC07C2qw

0ff...

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Offline iddee

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2017, 07:45:20 am »
Take your medicine, eltalia, you're hallucinating.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2017, 08:39:17 am »
That man (?) redefines baboon speak!

He is a man who learned at a young age to use power and money to get what you want by acting like a gangster.  Like a gangster he surrounds himself with little gangsters and trust no one.  The outrageous beliefs of the alt right, KKK, etc is to his liking.  It attracts people with softer similar views who bury their head in the sand about what an organization really stands for.

Quote
They were only defending themselves. It makes me sick to my stomach to read all the lies told in the media
I am sure it does Iddee, you like to tell them yourself.
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Offline beecanbee

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2017, 08:50:30 am »
Quote
When a demonstration permit is issued, no counter protest permit is needed.

Requiring any permit is questionable, but it does allow for traffic control and police protection.  As to your statement, you base this on which VA state law? 

here is my reasoning on the violence.  1. the bottles of urine and feces are trademarks of Antifa.  You might be able to urinate quickly into a bottle, but filling one with crap takes some planning.  2.  the violence at events with which they disagree is a trade mark.  They have done it at Trump rallies, at college speeches, and at various other gatherings that had nothing to do with the KKK.  3.  The gathering by the anti statue removal people the night before...and they outnumber the Klan types many times over, was peaceful and didn't make a blip on the news.  4.  witness statements are now coming out about the violence and the police (lack of) response.  They are from observers, not participants and the most interesting came from the ACLU today.

ACLU statement in here.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/laurettabrown/2017/08/14/mcauliffe-aclu-clash-over-police-restraint-in-charlottesville-n2368455

The same law that supports the permit - presumes that counter views will be aired.  BTW, the permit was issued but violated - torches, weapons, etc., plus not keeping to the script for entry to the park.

I`ll take your word on the counter demonstrators - since this is news to me and I cannot research these tactics and groups fast enough, and am in fact ignorant in this.

The ACLU said...

Quote
"What happened today had nothing to do with free speech. It devolved into conduct against individuals motivated by hate that was initially thuggish, and ultimately, deliberately murderous. There will be a time to investigate, assign responsibility, and seek accountability, and we will be a voice in that process. For now, we decry white nationalism, reject hatred, and weep.?
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Offline kathyp

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2017, 11:20:17 am »
https://acluva.org/20108/aclu-of-virginia-response-to-governors-allegations-that-aclu-is-responsible-for-violence-in-charlottesville/

Here is their first statement, which they have since been beating into revising.  They also had an observer who tweeted out some of what happened.  I'll try to look for that later.  There was an interview given to NPR which seems to have been buried somewhere, but I have the link to it somewhere, so I'll look for that also.

IF the Klan is attracting more people it has a lot to do with the fact that the left believes they can bully, shout down, and silence everyone who disagrees with them.  They believe this because they have been allowed to get what they want by way of riots or the courts.  part of the reason groups like AntiFa are running around rioting is that they believe they can somehow have a do-over for an election that didn't go their way...and they are just plain nasty violent people. 

I don't support the KKK or anything they stand for, but they have the right to march and gather.  Those who oppose them have the right to march and gather AND there were quite a few at that event who were doing that peacefully.  If the radical and violent leftist groups had not bussed in, there would have been some slogan swapping and everyone would have gone home.

The left got what it wanted and is now rioting around the country destroying public property pulling down monuments. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online cidersabuzzin

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2017, 03:19:34 pm »
Kathy
Remind me, who were the people that turned up kitted out with assault rifles, military grade helmets and body Armour?....Clue, they weren't police.     
Two rights don't equal a left.
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What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe iddee too, so long as he don't go too far to the  right and fall off the edge...but I think maybe some comb over artists already have!.....

Offline kathyp

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2017, 07:45:16 pm »
Quote
Remind me, who were the people that turned up kitted out with assault rifles, military grade helmets and body Armour?....Clue, they weren't police. 

That's only relevant if they use them.  I am kitted up with a weapon often.  I have yet to use it on anyone.

The others were kitted up with bottles so urine, feces, cans full of cement, clubs...and they did use them.  It takes some planning (I would think) to get crap into a bottle.  Urine, not so much.

Understand that no one I know of is defending the beliefs of the KKK.  What I am defending, and I can only speak for myself, is their right to gather and march.  Additionally, Antifa and those with them are not "fighting Fascism".  Around the country, they are physically attacking anyone with whom they disagree.  They have just managed to shut down a free speech march against Google that had nothing to do with race, fascism, or any of the other things they claim to fight. 
 
If they were not so well funded and organized, you'd be tempted to just write them off as a bunch of rioting mobsters, but they are something else and they are far more dangerous than a fringe group of KKK people who are usually ignored by the majority of the nation. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2017, 12:15:41 am »
Quote
Remind me, who were the people that turned up kitted out with assault rifles, military grade helmets and body Armour?....Clue, they weren't police. 

That's only relevant if they use them.  I am kitted up with a weapon often.  I have yet to use it on anyone.

The others were kitted up with bottles so urine, feces, cans full of cement, clubs...and they did use them.  It takes some planning (I would think) to get crap into a bottle.  Urine, not so much.

Understand that no one I know of is defending the beliefs of the KKK.  What I am defending, and I can only speak for myself, is their right to gather and march.  Additionally, Antifa and those with them are not "fighting Fascism".  Around the country, they are physically attacking anyone with whom they disagree.  They have just managed to shut down a free speech march against Google that had nothing to do with race, fascism, or any of the other things they claim to fight. 
 
If they were not so well funded and organized, you'd be tempted to just write them off as a bunch of rioting mobsters, but they are something else and they are far more dangerous than a fringe group of KKK people who are usually ignored by the majority of the nation.
When was the last time you wandered around Boring kitted out in kevlar helmet and body armour whilst carrying your gun? The rag -tag mob of so called militia were there just to intimidate. All it needed was one of their crackpot number to let off a shot and it could have turned into a massacre.
Two rights don't equal a left.
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What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe iddee too, so long as he don't go too far to the  right and fall off the edge...but I think maybe some comb over artists already have!.....

Offline kathyp

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2017, 01:37:01 am »
Quote
All it needed was one of their crackpot number to let off a shot and it could have turned into a massacre.

But it didn't.  I have watched Antifa and BLM riot, burn buildings, and people have died.  Antifa is particularly nasty. 

I have no doubt that there is fault on both sides, but the fact remains that the KKK group was having a legal and permitted gathering and the other people tried to shut them down.  We have to protect constitutional rights for all people, even those with whom we disagree.  They are meaningless if we only protect those we feel are righteous. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline bwallace23350

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2017, 11:04:24 am »
It is a pretty simple rule. The KKK and Nazis are always evil and wrong. Not a hard concept to grasp.

Antifa is pretty nasty in itself and willing to use violence. They don't have the racial hatred though that the other groups do so while they are a bad group they don't in and of themselves promote hatred just by their being.

Offline kathyp

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2017, 11:11:39 am »
Quote
It is a pretty simple rule. The KKK and Nazis are always evil and wrong. Not a hard concept to grasp.

Antifa is pretty nasty in itself and willing to use violence. They don't have the racial hatred though that the other groups do so while they are a bad group they don't in and of themselves promote hatred just by their being.

right on the first part.  Wrong on the 2nd part.  Thier hatred might not be purely racial, but it is directed especially toward anyone not leftist.  I am not sure why having racial hatred is worse than having other hatred.   In the end, they are doing the same things.  Marginalized those not like themselves.  Trying to shut down the people who don't agree with them.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline bwallace23350

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2017, 11:47:53 am »
Quote
It is a pretty simple rule. The KKK and Nazis are always evil and wrong. Not a hard concept to grasp.

Antifa is pretty nasty in itself and willing to use violence. They don't have the racial hatred though that the other groups do so while they are a bad group they don't in and of themselves promote hatred just by their being.

right on the first part.  Wrong on the 2nd part.  Thier hatred might not be purely racial, but it is directed especially toward anyone not leftist.  I am not sure why having racial hatred is worse than having other hatred.   In the end, they are doing the same things.  Marginalized those not like themselves.  Trying to shut down the people who don't agree with them.

It is worse racially because I an walk down the street and you can't tell my political ideology no so much with race

Offline kathyp

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2017, 11:53:21 am »
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It is worse racially because I an walk down the street and you can't tell my political ideology no so much with race


I'm not sure of your point.  Only one side should be called out for violence because race is visible? 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Offline bwallace23350

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2017, 12:26:11 pm »
YOu did not read my original response. I said Antifa is a pretty nasty group. Both are bad and should be labeled as such. Nazis and KKK are just worse

Offline beecanbee

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2017, 01:14:34 pm »
YOu did not read my original response. I said Antifa is a pretty nasty group. Both are bad and should be labeled as such. Nazis and KKK are just worse

Thanks - now that I have googled and read a bit about Antifa, I agree.  Violence IMO is not the answer.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2017, 11:38:27 pm »
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Both are bad and should be labeled as such. Nazis and KKK are just worse

Depends on what you are talking about.  If you are talking about ideology, you might be able to make that argument.  If you are talking about violent behavior, then no.  When is the last time you heard about violent behavior from the KKK as a group.  It's been decades.  Antifa and their friends the anarchists are consistently violent. 

There is no law against distasteful ideology.  In fact, it is protected as long as it remains ideology and not action.  For instance, an Imam can go on all day about how he hates Christians and America right up to the point where he suggests or instigates action against those groups.  Rev Wright was another good example.  His ideology was pretty horrible to just about everyone but the Obama family, but he and they were entitled to it.

Antifa and their friends are far left, some even as far left as communists, but they are free to believe as they wish.  What they are not free to do, and what they have consistently done, is behave violently.  They do not have the right to attack those with whom they disagree. 

What is interesting is that Antifa and the anarchists often show up and behave in the same way, but in theory, they should be opposed to each other.  They seem not to be.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline bwallace23350

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Re: DT's reticence
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2017, 09:43:43 am »
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Both are bad and should be labeled as such. Nazis and KKK are just worse

Depends on what you are talking about.  If you are talking about ideology, you might be able to make that argument.  If you are talking about violent behavior, then no.  When is the last time you heard about violent behavior from the KKK as a group.  It's been decades.  Antifa and their friends the anarchists are consistently violent. 

There is no law against distasteful ideology.  In fact, it is protected as long as it remains ideology and not action.  For instance, an Imam can go on all day about how he hates Christians and America right up to the point where he suggests or instigates action against those groups.  Rev Wright was another good example.  His ideology was pretty horrible to just about everyone but the Obama family, but he and they were entitled to it.

Antifa and their friends are far left, some even as far left as communists, but they are free to believe as they wish.  What they are not free to do, and what they have consistently done, is behave violently.  They do not have the right to attack those with whom they disagree. 

What is interesting is that Antifa and the anarchists often show up and behave in the same way, but in theory, they should be opposed to each other.  They seem not to be.

I do agree hateful ideology should not be outlawed. Only light can defeat darkness and we need their hatefulness exposed to the light.