Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?

[Ben Framed]

This is the first depth of detail that I have seen on this? Is Anyone here familiar with this method of mite treatment?
Phillip


https://glorybee.com/blog/oxalic-shop-towel-mite-treatment-method/

[bgillham]

I?ve used them this season. I have checked half my hives(about 15) for mites and I have found 1 mite so far.


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[Ben Framed]

The following is a direct quote from ScientificBeekeeping.com  and the article is titled 
''A Test of Late-Summer Varroa Treatments''

Let me cover the results of the late and informal testing of the oxalic strips and essential oil pads first:
Oxalic/glycerin Strips
Although we ran no controls for this small informal test (and could thus not calculate efficacy), our results (Table 2) reflected the results of Maggi, who recorded efficacies of over 90% after 6 weeks of treatment. The strips are relatively simple to make and install (Fig. 12). However, even after several months, the bees had not chewed them out. This may have the advantage of extending the treatment (since they still had oxalic acid crystals on the surface), but raises a huge caution to beekeepers not destroy oxalic acid?s utility as a mite treatment by leaving them in the hive.

One of the newest weapons in our arsenal against varroa are oxalic/glycerin strips, which provide release of oxalic acid over an extended period of time.
Oxalic/glycerin strip test
Treated 1 Dec
Hive No.      Nov mite count      Dec mite count
39                25                        1
41                23                        0
52                40                        1
69                22                        1

Table 2. Results of testing oxalic/glycerin strips on 4 hives. Note that at this time of season, we would have expected mite counts to drop to some degree even without treatment. However, these results, as well of those of Maggi, are certainly encouraging!
Practical application and a cautionary warning: the oxalic/glycerin strips show great promise, and I will continue testing. The downside, however, is that some beekeepers will of course keep them in their hives continuously (especially since the bees do not remove the strips), which will apply a strong selective pressure on varroa to develop resistance mechanisms to acids. Beekeepers have a history of shooting themselves in the foot by overusing treatments without rotation, resulting in resistant mites and bacteria. If you use these strips, please do not leave them in your hives continuously, as you may then inadvertently be breeding mites resistant to acids, which could ruin it for the rest of us.

[Ben Framed]

I?ve used them this season. I have checked half my hives(about 15) for mites and I have found 1 mite so far.


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Awesome!!!   Thanks bgillham the article looks promising and your voucher even more so validates!! Thanks for your response!!
Anyone else?

[Ben Framed]

Also Welcome to Beemaster bgillham Glad to have you join us!!
Phillip

[van from Arkansas]

Bgillham: welcome to Beemaster.  Your first post, very informative.  I hope you continue.

Randy,s trials look promising.  I am not sure about mite resistant to Oxalic acid, to many modes of action for this acid, so resistant is questionable.

Good post Mr. Phil, looks promising, very promising.
Blessings

[Ben Framed]

Bgillham: welcome to Beemaster.  Your first post, very informative.  I hope you continue.

Randy,s trials look promising. 
Good post Mr. Phil, looks promising, very promising.
Blessings

''I am not sure about mite resistant to Oxalic acid, to many modes of action for this acid, so resistant is questionable.''

I agree with you 100 percent Mr Van. I also questioned this one part of the article about the resistance, I do not see a possible way of varroa becoming resistant to acid, the mite would have to mutate into growing a hard exoskeleton for protection of its now soft outer layer.  I do not see that happening. Otherwise, Yes Sir, it does look promising!
 

[beesonhay465]

i have one hive .swarm moved in memorial weekend. treated for 8 weeks total starting aug 15 the bees removed 1/2 of the first towel and propolized the rest. all remanents of the first towel removed after 1 month and a new towel applied.no further treatment this year. its getting too cold to want to open the hive

[Ben Framed]

Thanks beesonhay465.  Congratulations on your swarm!

[BAHBEEs]

the shop towels are intended for use to trap Hive beetles.  I have tried them, and they do indeed trap beetles...but...they also trap what is for me an unacceptable number of bees.

On Oxalic acid.  It is impossible for Varroa to become immune.

On its timing.  I wait till the days are cold such that the whole hive is in the box...and there is no brood underway so no capped brood cells.  I also do not like to open hive that time of year, so for maximal assurance I hit them 3 times, 2 weeks apart instead of pawing around in there checking for brood.  That should be a bit of an overkill, because if I get timing right and there is no brood (leaving literally nowhere for a mite to hide), and all the bees are in because of cold, that 1st shot should do the job.  I just don't trust that I am that good at timing...thus three shots over 6 weeks.  I haven't started for this winter yet, but may this weekend.

Barry

[Ben Framed]

BAHBEEs , Reply Number 2 shows results of MITE reduction in 4 experimental hives with beginning mite counts and ending mite counts. Take a look at reply number 2 also.
Phillip

[BAHBEEs]

Fine, but up till now the towels have been marketed for Beetles...not mites...

AND they still kill too many bees no matter what your actual target.

[Ben Framed]

Fine, but up till now the towels have been marketed for Beetles...not mites...

AND they still kill too many bees no matter what your actual target.

BAHBEEs;  Again, please read the research paper that was provided in the first link. The towels are used in a totally different way than in SHB control. No comparison. We are not in any way talking SHB control here or the method that towels are used with this treatment method. If you will take the time to read the paper you will see that the sheets are saturated in Glycerin, therefore there is almost 0 chance bees being caught up in the sheets, as the sheets fibers (shop tile fibers) are SEALED, using a Glycerin Water and Oxalic additive for MITE treatment. I am not disputing that bees do get caught up in naked, unaltered shop tile sheets as used in SHB control. A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SUBJECT WITH TOTALLY DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES.   
I hope that helps.
Phillip

[BAHBEEs]

Ah, so it is actually and oxalic acid approach.  Honestly I cannot see the point now that we have the vaporizer rigs.  They work well and are very easy.  I don't even have to open the hive which is great when you winter treat.  But to each their own.  It may be because I am a chemist, but the vapor approach is just so easy.

Like most...no I have not read the paper, sorry not the best approach but...  I may when I am not at work...where I read scientific papers all day.  I can easily slip a conversational post into my day with no disruption...reading a paper...that would start to eat into my real work, so it will have to wait for off time.

As far as the towels or beetles...I was very underwhelmed ;)

[Live Oak]

Ah, so it is actually and oxalic acid approach.  Honestly I cannot see the point now that we have the vaporizer rigs.  They work well and are very easy.  I don't even have to open the hive which is great when you winter treat.  But to each their own.  It may be because I am a chemist, but the vapor approach is just so easy.

Like most...no I have not read the paper, sorry not the best approach but...  I may when I am not at work...where I read scientific papers all day.  I can easily slip a conversational post into my day with no disruption...reading a paper...that would start to eat into my real work, so it will have to wait for off time.

As far as the towels or beetles...I was very underwhelmed ;)

Totally agree!  I have tried the shop towel method that Randy is currently working on and found that they do work but work best on hives that completely shred the towels up and remove them from the hives.  About 1/2 -1/3 of my hives propolized the towels and allowed them to remain inside the hive.  These hives benefited very little from the treatment. 

The shop towel method is a LOT of work and mess to deal with.  Now that ProVap has the ProVap 110 and ProVap EZ, I see little need for the shop towels. 

Lastly, in my state the shop towel treatment is ILLEGAL and will get you a ticket if inspected.  Being that I am one of the state bee inspectors, I no longer experiment with this method as it would not be eithical for me to be doing something that is not legal and thus setting a bed example for other beekeepers. 

The bottom line is that for OAV or OA to be effective, the bees must come in contact with the OA.  The more the bees come in contact with the OA, the more effective it is.  Other commercial beekeepers I have spoken to are mixing OA with powdered sugar at the rate of 5% OA mix with the sugar and they just sprinkling the powder mix over the top bars and let the bees clean it up.  They are in my opinion just using a different method of causing the bees to come in contact with the OA. 

[van from Arkansas]

Live Oak, Mr. State Inspector: I would not mix Oxalic acid with sugar.  I realize you do not and we?re referring to other beeks.  That is a bad practice and would have impacts on the digestive tract, maybe affective various other organs of the honeybee.  The acids are not meant to be take internally by the bees.

Yes, a person can argue some vapors are bound to come in contact with bee mouth parts but the vapors work and many studies show no detrimental effects of OAV on bees used as directed.
Blessings

[Ben Framed]

Ah, so it is actually and oxalic acid approach.  Honestly I cannot see the point now that we have the vaporizer rigs.  They work well and are very easy.  I don't even have to open the hive which is great when you winter treat.  But to each their own.  It may be because I am a chemist, but the vapor approach is just so easy.

Like most...no I have not read the paper, sorry not the best approach but...  I may when I am not at work...where I read scientific papers all day.  I can easily slip a conversational post into my day with no disruption...reading a paper...that would start to eat into my real work, so it will have to wait for off time.

As far as the towels or beetles...I was very underwhelmed ;)

Totally agree!  I have tried the shop towel method that Randy is currently working on and found that they do work but work best on hives that completely shred the towels up and remove them from the hives.  About 1/2 -1/3 of my hives propolized the towels and allowed them to remain inside the hive.  These hives benefited very little from the treatment. 

The shop towel method is a LOT of work and mess to deal with.  Now that ProVap has the ProVap 110 and ProVap EZ, I see little need for the shop towels. 

Lastly, in my state the shop towel treatment is ILLEGAL and will get you a ticket if inspected.  Being that I am one of the state bee inspectors, I no longer experiment with this method as it would not be eithical for me to be doing something that is not legal and thus setting a bed example for other beekeepers. 

The bottom line is that for OAV or OA to be effective, the bees must come in contact with the OA.  The more the bees come in contact with the OA, the more effective it is.  Other commercial beekeepers I have spoken to are mixing OA with powdered sugar at the rate of 5% OA mix with the sugar and they just sprinkling the powder mix over the top bars and let the bees clean it up.  They are in my opinion just using a different method of causing the bees to come in contact with the OA.

''Now that ProVap has the ProVap 110 and ProVap EZ, I see little need for the shop towels.''
 
Randy's advantage Glycerin-Oxalic saturated shop towel method is also another way for the mites to come in constant contact with the Oxalic and is described as being a 1 time only treatment, up to three times a year is part of the advantage. But the obvious successful numbers in mite reduction as I also quoted and posted in my post number 2, is the real advantage. I have never read, seen or heard of such success with Oxalic used in any other form or method, including the vapor route where numerous back to back treatments with the vaporizer method are recommended to be used, as the success as Mr Oliver posted in this article as described in my post Number 2.  As I have stated before I love the vaporizer method. And have developed one of my own design. So the vaporizer method is nothing but a plus for me. However I am striving to be unbios in my opinion of any, new to me, natural as possible method of handling mites, researching, asking for opinions as now, to you and others, looking for any good advantage to help rid my bees of mites.

I am quoting Mr Oliver form post Number 2
''However, even after several months, the bees had not chewed them out.''

Quoting you 
''I have tried the shop towel method that Randy is currently working on and found that they do work but work best on hives that completely shred the towels up and remove them from the hives''

Two different answers. This puts beekeepers such as myself in a position as being not able to trust what Mr Oliver says at the most, or take anything he says with a grain of salt at the least on this subject. I have great respect for you and your opinions. I also have great respect for Mr Oliver with his many years of research.  With him I have never talked to or with, with you I have.  You have always given good information to me both publicly and privately via PM for this I thank you and hope to always be able to count on your good advice in future questions that I may have. 
Sincerely, Phillip 
 

[Ben Framed]

Picture of Randies glycerin-oxalic coated shop towel. Does this look like the average shop towel strip? 

[van from Arkansas]

Phil, that looks like heavy cloth, like cotton flannel.  Just a guess on my part from looking at the pic.  I doubt the bees could tear up or get stuck in such finely woven material.
You are on to something that looks very promising directed at Varroa.

Blessings

[Ben Framed]

Thanks Mr Van, I thought the same thing. He says it is shop towels. One article says (Randy used Scott Shop Towels). After looking at the picture, I was wondering if he meant the red cotton type shop towels as sold in harbor freight and any other shop supplier. But I went back and looked again at the article and it did say,( Randy used Scott Shop Towels) The dog I have in this hunt is the welfare of my bees and the responsibility that I assumed when I took them from the wild and placed them in an artificial surrounding. It was hard and hot work removing the first bees form a two story house that was beneath the siding, several feet from the ground.  The entire area of the bees location had to be removed, and replaced siding and boards without obvious tampering to look upon. Up and down a ladder all day in the wide open hot sun. All this done on a ladder with no help. The bees deserve every honest chance to prosper under my care. I try to help them and at the same time as natural as possible. From that hive, spring before last, are now right at 30 hives. Let me add, that I might not have a single hive survive that first winter had it not been for Mr Live Oaks advice last fall, helping me get the bees through winter with his good advice of how to open feed pollen, his advice along with David at barnyard bees and a couple more in our similar latitude. I am very grateful to you Mr Live Oak. I am however very puzzled as you can probably imagine. 

Allow me to share something with you. Kamon Reynolds recently did a video series featuring an experimental colony, which had had 94 mites in an alcohol wash per 300 bees. He did five Oxalic vapor treatments in a row, even still he was getting thirty two mites per three hundred mite wash. It took three added rounds making a total of EIGHT OAV treatments, along with apivar to finally reach zero mite count. He said the colony has dwindled and still has signs of multiple viruses. He and Ian Steppler discussed this in the comment section of one of his videos. A couple reasons that Kamon gave for doing the series was that his "main goal was to show that OAV isn't quite as effective as many think it is with brood present in the hive. Also, to show that mites are to be taken seriously."  Now Kamon was using OAV just like you, I and others here use. Now we all know how easily the mites can get out of hand when brood is present. The trick is to make sure we are on top of it all the time and not let the mites ever get out of hand?  Just another plus with the Glycerin-Oxalic saturated shop towel method, if the results are as successful as Mr Oliver has claimed. Let me iterate, I am not disputing Mr Live Oaks claims but I am now TOTALLY puzzled.

Last season, beeboy 01, here at beemaster did a series right here of a similar problem hive. With similar results. I am happy to tell you that beeboy01 told me that the hive did survive, but it was a fight. With the results shown by Mr Oliver why would I not have been excited at such promising results as he has shown, Via the Glycerin-Oxalic saturated shop towel method? Look what Mr Oliver claims to have accomplished with the shop towel method. Outstanding results! Look at his chart in post 2. I would have hoped that Mr Oliver was accurate with his findings, and still do have (some) hope. Now I honestly do not know what to think.

I am hoping that there is some sort of decrefency somewhere for the good of all. Perhaps a missed something. Even our new member concurred that he has used this method and has found only one mite in fifteen hives. And he posted that before I posted the chart showing similar results by Mr Oliver. It is rare that we have such conflicting opinions here but the mite situation seems to be one of them.   

I am not trying to twist anyones thinking but I am trying to sort this out. Scratching my head.  I am more confused now than when I first asked the beginning question.  I suppose the only satisfaction that I might now get is to try this myself, by taking the bull by the horn next season, I hate to lose a hive to anything, SHB or MItes. So most likely I will set aside three or more hives and treat only with the shop towel method, if it is legal here and I see no reason why it would not be, Oxalic is Oxalic whichever form it may be in? While treating the rest the hives the old fashion way OAV.  Wish me luck!
Blessings to all,
Phillip