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Author Topic: Brushy Mountain bee farm  (Read 6314 times)

Offline Michael Bush

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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2018, 06:51:15 pm »
You can buy OA in any Lowes or Ace hardware, ETC. If you use it on a beehive for mites, you are using it "off label". Brushy is the only one who can issue a label as to how to use it for mites.

iddee, I can see where Lowes or Home Depot may be an issue because it may or may not be 99.9 percent pure OA. But does this also include pharmaceutical grade OA?  Is pharmaceutical grade also illegal to use for mites unless it is sold to the beekeeper by Brushy Mountain?
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Beepah

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2018, 08:32:21 pm »
You can buy OA in any Lowes or Ace hardware, ETC. If you use it on a beehive for mites, you are using it "off label". Brushy is the only one who can issue a label as to how to use it for mites.

iddee, I can see where Lowes or Home Depot may be an issue because it may or may not be 99.9 percent pure OA. But does this also include pharmaceutical grade OA?  Is pharmaceutical grade also illegal to use for mites unless it is sold to the beekeeper by Brushy Mountain?

It isn't about purity, it is about the EPA pesticide registration process:
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
Companies apply to have pesticides registered. 

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2018, 09:38:38 pm »
You can buy OA in any Lowes or Ace hardware, ETC. If you use it on a beehive for mites, you are using it "off label". Brushy is the only one who can issue a label as to how to use it for mites.

iddee, I can see where Lowes or Home Depot may be an issue because it may or may not be 99.9 percent pure OA. But does this also include pharmaceutical grade OA?  Is pharmaceutical grade also illegal to use for mites unless it is sold to the beekeeper by Brushy Mountain?



It isn't about purity, it is about the EPA pesticide registration process:
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
Companies apply to have pesticides registered.

Page 2 paragraph 4 of the EPA report, from reply 10, states that OA is [no longer reregistered as a pesticide].....
Again; This report is very interesting as well as informative and well worth reading.
 
Thanks , Phillip
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 10:45:06 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2018, 01:31:39 pm »
You can buy OA in any Lowes or Ace hardware, ETC. If you use it on a beehive for mites, you are using it "off label". Brushy is the only one who can issue a label as to how to use it for mites.

iddee, I can see where Lowes or Home Depot may be an issue because it may or may not be 99.9 percent pure OA. But does this also include pharmaceutical grade OA?  Is pharmaceutical grade also illegal to use for mites unless it is sold to the beekeeper by Brushy Mountain?



It isn't about purity, it is about the EPA pesticide registration process:
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
Companies apply to have pesticides registered.

Page 2 paragraph 4 of the EPA report, from reply 10, states that OA is [no longer reregistered as a pesticide].....
Again; This report is very interesting as well as informative and well worth reading.
 
Thanks , Phillip

Being that the OA is no longer registered as a pesticide, my question is still out there, Is it or is it not legal to use without Brushy Mountian in the picture? Dallas you are a retired attorney, have you read the report? Are there any other attorneys that have read the report?
Thanks Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline iddee

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2018, 03:34:55 pm »
No attorney or report needed. It's against the law to use any chemical "off-label".

If you have a Brushy Mountain label and instructions, then I don't know if it is legal then or not. With any other label, it is illegal.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Jacobs

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2018, 06:17:57 pm »
Oxalic acid occurs naturally in some foods like kale or spinach.  I don't think that makes it a good idea to buy a can of it to sprinkle on my greens to increase the oxalate content, but if I choose to do it, the government probably doesn't care.  If I want to add it to greens I may grow for sale to the public, the government would probably care a lot.  How a chemical or pesticide is used and where it is used makes a difference.

While not perfect, the pesticide registration laws and regulations, like food and drug regulations, TRY to make it more likely that products put in the food chain or used to help with agricultural production are reasonably safe and effective.  The certification process for OA involved demonstrating that the product does what it is intended to do and establishes reasonably safe methods for application--including how much and under what conditions the chemical may be applied.  Perfect--no.  Better than totally unregulated freedom to apply any chemical in any way to try take care of varroa--in my opinion--yes.

I didn't view Brushy Mountain's effort to get the government to approve OA for use against varroa as a payment for a monopoly.  I didn't resent  purchasing the legally labelled/properly produced OA from Brushy Mountain.  I appreciated that they went to the expense and bother of making it legally available with instructions about how NOT to kill my self, my bees, or other things near where I may be applying it.  I wish some bee outfit or other company would do the same with the varieties of BT that are effective for wax moth control.

Just my opinion--not looking to start a fight.

Offline Beepah

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2018, 09:32:48 pm »
You can buy OA in any Lowes or Ace hardware, ETC. If you use it on a beehive for mites, you are using it "off label". Brushy is the only one who can issue a label as to how to use it for mites.

iddee, I can see where Lowes or Home Depot may be an issue because it may or may not be 99.9 percent pure OA. But does this also include pharmaceutical grade OA?  Is pharmaceutical grade also illegal to use for mites unless it is sold to the beekeeper by Brushy Mountain?



It isn't about purity, it is about the EPA pesticide registration process:
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
Companies apply to have pesticides registered.

Page 2 paragraph 4 of the EPA report, from reply 10, states that OA is [no longer reregistered as a pesticide].....
Again; This report is very interesting as well as informative and well worth reading.
 
Thanks , Phillip

Being that the OA is no longer registered as a pesticide, my question is still out there, Is it or is it not legal to use without Brushy Mountian in the picture? Dallas you are a retired attorney, have you read the report? Are there any other attorneys that have read the report?
Thanks Phillip

Hi Phillip,
All pesticides sold or used in the United States must be registered by EPA.  At the time the "Registration Decision for the New Active Ingredient Oxalic Acid" was signed by Jack Housenger (2015), oxalic acid was not registered as a pesticide, as in don't use it as a pesticide because it is not registered as one.  Pesticides need to be reregistered every 15 years, so although oxalic acid had been registered as a pesticide in the past, no one had registered it as a pesticide in the 15 years before Brushy Mountain applied. 
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
-Kevin

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2018, 12:34:00 am »
@ beepawHi Phillip,
All pesticides sold or used in the United States must be registered by EPA.  At the time the "Registration Decision for the New Active Ingredient Oxalic Acid" was signed by Jack Housenger (2015), oxalic acid was not registered as a pesticide, as in don't use it as a pesticide because it is not registered as one.  Pesticides need to be reregistered every 15 years, so although oxalic acid had been registered as a pesticide in the past, no one had registered it as a pesticide in the 15 years before Brushy Mountain applied. 
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
-Kevin

Thanks Kevin, reeding  the report i understood this was required in the past.  But back to the present,  Since OA is now no longer considered a pesticide, as of 3/10/15  the date that Jack Housenger, Director Office of Pesticide Control. Signed the Registration Decision for the new Oxalic Acid, stating that OA is No longer classified as a pesticide.  Does it still have to be registered as such (pesticide) in order to legally be labeled and sold for bee use? The best answer that I have read comes from iddee. He explained that (chemicals) have to labeled and used for what intention the label states. Off label is illegal. Notice he didn't say pesticide. So here we are again, since Brushy Mountain is apparently the only legal distributor of labeled for bee use OA, What now? What does the American beekeeper do to protect his or her bees from Varroa Mites without breaking the law?  Thanks for your input Kevin.

Thanks, Phillip 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 12:47:04 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Beepah

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2018, 11:38:17 am »
@ beepawHi Phillip,
All pesticides sold or used in the United States must be registered by EPA.  At the time the "Registration Decision for the New Active Ingredient Oxalic Acid" was signed by Jack Housenger (2015), oxalic acid was not registered as a pesticide, as in don't use it as a pesticide because it is not registered as one.  Pesticides need to be reregistered every 15 years, so although oxalic acid had been registered as a pesticide in the past, no one had registered it as a pesticide in the 15 years before Brushy Mountain applied. 
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
-Kevin

Thanks Kevin, reeding  the report i understood this was required in the past.  But back to the present,  Since OA is now no longer considered a pesticide, as of 3/10/15  the date that Jack Housenger, Director Office of Pesticide Control. Signed the Registration Decision for the new Oxalic Acid, stating that OA is No longer classified as a pesticide.  Does it still have to be registered as such (pesticide) in order to legally be labeled and sold for bee use? The best answer that I have read comes from iddee. He explained that (chemicals) have to labeled and used for what intention the label states. Off label is illegal. Notice he didn't say pesticide. So here we are again, since Brushy Mountain is apparently the only legal distributor of labeled for bee use OA, What now? What does the American beekeeper do to protect his or her bees from Varroa Mites without breaking the law?  Thanks for your input Kevin.

Thanks, Phillip

Hi Phillip,

Hopefully, this clarifies:

In the present, if you are claiming (selling, using) almost* any chemical as a pesticide then it must be registered. Pesticide registrations are not like patents.  If a pesticide is not re-regestered with the EPA before its present registration expires, then it does not in any way mean the active ingredient no longer has to be registered if it is later used as a pesticide again.  For example, if Bayer doesn't re-register Maxforce Impact Roach Gel Bait with the EPA in 2019, it does not mean that the EPA has decided that Clothianidin (the only active ingredient in that product) is no longer a pesticide.  The active ingredient Clothianidin will always require registration.

The statement you cite from Jack Housenger is not being read in full context.  The entire statement is:
"Oxalic acid (CAS# 144-62-7) was previously registered as an antimicrobial pesticide and EPA's Office of Pesticide Programs (OPP) issued a Reregistration Eligibility Decision (RED) in 1992.  Although oxalic acid is no longer registered as a pesticide, OPP has data in-house that describes the human health effects of the compound, the environmental fate and ecotoxicology."

Oxalic acid used to be registered as a pesticide.  The company that held the registration decided it did not want to spend the time and money on the re-registration process.  In 1992 the EPA reviewed the information they already had on oxalic acid and decided that oxalic acid could be re-registered if someone wanted to do so.  That re-registering company would not have to provide new toxicity data because the data the EPA already had was decided to be sufficient for future registration.  Mr. Housenger is indicating that oxalic acid in this registration application does not have to go through the process as if it was an unknown, new active ingredient chemical; the data they have on file from the previous registration and the oxalic acid RED report are sufficient for them to make a decision on the current registration application. 

The conclusion of his registration decision (2015): "In cooperation with our regulatory partners in Canada, the evaluation of the application for registration of oxalic acid was completed as a work share.  Considering the assessed risk to human health and the environment, the Agency concludes that oxlic acid meets the regulatory standard under the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA).  There are no outstanding data requirements for oxalic acid.  Therefore, the EPA is granting the unconditional registration of oxalic acide under Section 3(c)(5) of FIFRA."

Oxalic acid is a registered pesticide. What happens next legally, I don't know.
-Kevin


*There is one mechanism for an active ingredient chemical to be a pesticide and then not be a pesticide and that is inclusion on the EPA's "Minimum Risk Pesticides" list.  Oxalic acid is not on that list.

 

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