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Author Topic: Brushy Mountain bee farm  (Read 6385 times)

Offline cao

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Brushy Mountain bee farm
« on: November 11, 2018, 10:16:34 am »
Any info on them closing?

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2018, 10:22:55 am »
I received this message when I checked their site.

Our Web site is temporarily unavailable while we perform routine system maintenance. We are working on the site to improve its appearance and functionality.
We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience. Please visit us again later.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline Jim134

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2018, 10:49:39 am »
https://youtu.be/3nPyMBdOh_Y


   Bee Happy  Jim134  :smile:
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Offline iddee

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2018, 02:02:12 pm »
I have been told they closed all 3 stores and didn't even tell the employees. The rumor is they are filing bankruptcy.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline chux

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2018, 09:45:11 am »
Brushy Mountain had quality customer service. I liked what they did for the beekeeping community. But...their prices were a bit high. It seemed that they catered to the hobbyist who had a couple of hives in the back yard and didn't mind paying higher prices. Maybe they can restructure somehow...???

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2018, 12:51:24 pm »
Bankruptcy often leads to restructuring...  I guess we will see.

It occurs to me, they were the only LEGAL source for Oxalic acid labeled for use on Varroa mites...
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2018, 01:01:48 pm »
Bankruptcy often leads to restructuring...  I guess we will see.

It occurs to me, they were the only LEGAL source for Oxalic acid labeled for use on Varroa mites...

I didn't realize this Michael, I wonder why they were the only (legal) source?
Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline MikeyN.C.

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2018, 02:46:35 pm »
Exactly MB,
I think they were only one by FDA that could sell OA.  Was wondering same thing.

Offline MikeyN.C.

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2018, 02:49:58 pm »
Or is it USDA ??

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2018, 08:39:50 pm »
They spent the money for testing their product for approval, so their product was approved for sale.  Others can buy from them and sell the approved product, but the untested, unapproved product is not legal to sell for treatment of bees.  Same chemical, but their product is legal, while other products are legal as wood bleach and other uses, but not to treat bees for varroa mites.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2018, 11:29:23 am »




The followiing is the 7 page registration report decision for OA In the Unided Stares of America. Every beekeeper, (in my opinion), should read and be informed. Rich information here. If you wish to visit the site simply google  the following,

(Oxlic Acid  registered by EPA for use against varroa mites on honey)

Once this page is reached, simply scroll down until you see the followimg words printed in blue. Touch and the report will appear on a new page, then Simply touch PDF.

**from J.E. Housenger, EPA, Registration Decision for the New Active Ingredient Oxalic Acid
 
Good reading,
Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"




2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2018, 03:04:58 pm »
>I didn't realize this Michael, I wonder why they were the only (legal) source?

It takes money to get things approved.  Brushy Mt. paid for the testing and approval process.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2018, 03:19:07 pm »
>I didn't realize this Michael, I wonder why they were the only (legal) source?

It takes money to get things approved.  Brushy Mt. paid for the testing and approval process.

If you havn't read the artical described in post 10, you might enjoy.  It tells of who did research  along with other interesting facts and why the EPA approved OA.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 08:40:31 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2018, 12:00:02 pm »
>**from J.E. Housenger, EPA, Registration Decision for the New Active Ingredient Oxalic Acid

Doesn't show up on the page for me...  The EPA web page comes up but I don't see this link on that page.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline chux

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2018, 02:37:54 pm »




The followiing is the 7 page registration report decision for OA In the Unided Stares of America. Every beekeeper, (in my opinion), should read and be informed. Rich information here. If you wish to visit the site simply google  the following,

(Oxlic Acid  registered by EPA for use against varroa mites on honey)

Once this page is reached, simply scroll down until you see the followimg words printed in blue. Touch and the report will appear on a new page, then Simply touch PDF.

**from J.E. Housenger, EPA, Registration Decision for the New Active Ingredient Oxalic Acid
 
Good reading,
Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"

I'm a pretty simple person, but it appears to me that the finding was that Oxalic was approved for registration and use. So...we can use it, but we can only use it if we get it from someone who registered? OK. The product is safe to use, and we can buy it over the counter from a variety of sources. But...we can only use it if we purchase it from people who paid the government for registration??? Am I the only one who sees a problem here? Those who register to sell it did not invent the product. They took something that was already out there produced by somebody else, then paid the government to have permission to be the only people who can sell the product for beekeeper use.

 

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2018, 02:58:55 pm »
Chux,
Yep, sounds pretty shaky.
Jim
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 03:59:33 pm by sawdstmakr »
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2018, 03:14:30 pm »
Chic,
Yep, sounds pretty shaky.
Jims

Exactly! If you read the approval records, described in post 10, (if that is the proper wording I am using, you will see who was credited for the research). Mainly the taxpayer. A pretty good explanation  how, when, and why Oxalic Acid was approved. The official office of government doesn't mention any dealer of the product. As I said before, if you get a chance I recommend reading the approval record, and see for yourselves.
    Now, perhaps Brushy Mountain did some Lobbying and got the  Monopoly to distribute? I don't know and this is just a guess. Or perhaps there is more behind the scenes or in clear view that I haven't found that will absolutely concur with what some have said?   

Phillip
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 10:26:22 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Jim134

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2018, 04:00:35 pm »
   Brushy Mountain does not have any monopoly on OA.. If you want to go through all the testing process it take to become EPA approved.... You can do it.. By the way I do not think Brushy Mountain  licenses runs out until Summer time 2019....

         BEE HAPPY Jim134   :smile:
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2018, 04:37:47 pm »
>**from J.E. Housenger, EPA, Registration Decision for the New Active Ingredient Oxalic Acid

Doesn't show up on the page for me...  The EPA web page comes up but I don't see this link on that page.

Once this EPA page is reached, simply scroll down until you see the following words printed in blue, (Highlighted  in blue) 
 
( Registration Decision for the New Active Ingredient Oxalic Acid )

Touch  and the report will appear on a new page, then Simply touch PDF the report will pull up.
   Brushy Mountain does not have any monopoly on OA.. If you want to go through all the testing process it take to become EPA approved.... You can do it.. By the way I do not think Brushy Mountain  licenses runs out until Summer time 2019....

         BEE HAPPY Jim134   :smile:

I  don't know anything about this, only what is said and speculated on and in this topic, But I have also read the report, the report seems pretty clear to me OA is approved.... Did the report say that it was to be distributed only by an approved dealer for OA? I don't recall reading this in the report but might have missed it.  Or perhaps there is more behind the scenes or in clear view that I haven't found, that will absolutely concur with what some here have said?  The point is, If they,   (Brushy Mountain) are the only approved dealer and the only legal way to obtain OA for treating The mite, (buying from them), what is next?  I suppose we had all better get in touch with MB and get in line to purchase his resistance bees! 😁😊. And if so, good for you Michael, you have worked hard and long to develop the resistance bee!

Thanks, Phillip Hall
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 10:19:53 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline iddee

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2018, 06:23:43 pm »
You can buy OA in any Lowes or Ace hardware, ETC. If you use it on a beehive for mites, you are using it "off label". Brushy is the only one who can issue a label as to how to use it for mites.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Michael Bush

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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2018, 06:51:15 pm »
You can buy OA in any Lowes or Ace hardware, ETC. If you use it on a beehive for mites, you are using it "off label". Brushy is the only one who can issue a label as to how to use it for mites.

iddee, I can see where Lowes or Home Depot may be an issue because it may or may not be 99.9 percent pure OA. But does this also include pharmaceutical grade OA?  Is pharmaceutical grade also illegal to use for mites unless it is sold to the beekeeper by Brushy Mountain?
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Beepah

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2018, 08:32:21 pm »
You can buy OA in any Lowes or Ace hardware, ETC. If you use it on a beehive for mites, you are using it "off label". Brushy is the only one who can issue a label as to how to use it for mites.

iddee, I can see where Lowes or Home Depot may be an issue because it may or may not be 99.9 percent pure OA. But does this also include pharmaceutical grade OA?  Is pharmaceutical grade also illegal to use for mites unless it is sold to the beekeeper by Brushy Mountain?

It isn't about purity, it is about the EPA pesticide registration process:
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
Companies apply to have pesticides registered. 

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2018, 09:38:38 pm »
You can buy OA in any Lowes or Ace hardware, ETC. If you use it on a beehive for mites, you are using it "off label". Brushy is the only one who can issue a label as to how to use it for mites.

iddee, I can see where Lowes or Home Depot may be an issue because it may or may not be 99.9 percent pure OA. But does this also include pharmaceutical grade OA?  Is pharmaceutical grade also illegal to use for mites unless it is sold to the beekeeper by Brushy Mountain?



It isn't about purity, it is about the EPA pesticide registration process:
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
Companies apply to have pesticides registered.

Page 2 paragraph 4 of the EPA report, from reply 10, states that OA is [no longer reregistered as a pesticide].....
Again; This report is very interesting as well as informative and well worth reading.
 
Thanks , Phillip
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 10:45:06 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2018, 01:31:39 pm »
You can buy OA in any Lowes or Ace hardware, ETC. If you use it on a beehive for mites, you are using it "off label". Brushy is the only one who can issue a label as to how to use it for mites.

iddee, I can see where Lowes or Home Depot may be an issue because it may or may not be 99.9 percent pure OA. But does this also include pharmaceutical grade OA?  Is pharmaceutical grade also illegal to use for mites unless it is sold to the beekeeper by Brushy Mountain?



It isn't about purity, it is about the EPA pesticide registration process:
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
Companies apply to have pesticides registered.

Page 2 paragraph 4 of the EPA report, from reply 10, states that OA is [no longer reregistered as a pesticide].....
Again; This report is very interesting as well as informative and well worth reading.
 
Thanks , Phillip

Being that the OA is no longer registered as a pesticide, my question is still out there, Is it or is it not legal to use without Brushy Mountian in the picture? Dallas you are a retired attorney, have you read the report? Are there any other attorneys that have read the report?
Thanks Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline iddee

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2018, 03:34:55 pm »
No attorney or report needed. It's against the law to use any chemical "off-label".

If you have a Brushy Mountain label and instructions, then I don't know if it is legal then or not. With any other label, it is illegal.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Jacobs

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2018, 06:17:57 pm »
Oxalic acid occurs naturally in some foods like kale or spinach.  I don't think that makes it a good idea to buy a can of it to sprinkle on my greens to increase the oxalate content, but if I choose to do it, the government probably doesn't care.  If I want to add it to greens I may grow for sale to the public, the government would probably care a lot.  How a chemical or pesticide is used and where it is used makes a difference.

While not perfect, the pesticide registration laws and regulations, like food and drug regulations, TRY to make it more likely that products put in the food chain or used to help with agricultural production are reasonably safe and effective.  The certification process for OA involved demonstrating that the product does what it is intended to do and establishes reasonably safe methods for application--including how much and under what conditions the chemical may be applied.  Perfect--no.  Better than totally unregulated freedom to apply any chemical in any way to try take care of varroa--in my opinion--yes.

I didn't view Brushy Mountain's effort to get the government to approve OA for use against varroa as a payment for a monopoly.  I didn't resent  purchasing the legally labelled/properly produced OA from Brushy Mountain.  I appreciated that they went to the expense and bother of making it legally available with instructions about how NOT to kill my self, my bees, or other things near where I may be applying it.  I wish some bee outfit or other company would do the same with the varieties of BT that are effective for wax moth control.

Just my opinion--not looking to start a fight.

Offline Beepah

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2018, 09:32:48 pm »
You can buy OA in any Lowes or Ace hardware, ETC. If you use it on a beehive for mites, you are using it "off label". Brushy is the only one who can issue a label as to how to use it for mites.

iddee, I can see where Lowes or Home Depot may be an issue because it may or may not be 99.9 percent pure OA. But does this also include pharmaceutical grade OA?  Is pharmaceutical grade also illegal to use for mites unless it is sold to the beekeeper by Brushy Mountain?



It isn't about purity, it is about the EPA pesticide registration process:
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
Companies apply to have pesticides registered.

Page 2 paragraph 4 of the EPA report, from reply 10, states that OA is [no longer reregistered as a pesticide].....
Again; This report is very interesting as well as informative and well worth reading.
 
Thanks , Phillip

Being that the OA is no longer registered as a pesticide, my question is still out there, Is it or is it not legal to use without Brushy Mountian in the picture? Dallas you are a retired attorney, have you read the report? Are there any other attorneys that have read the report?
Thanks Phillip

Hi Phillip,
All pesticides sold or used in the United States must be registered by EPA.  At the time the "Registration Decision for the New Active Ingredient Oxalic Acid" was signed by Jack Housenger (2015), oxalic acid was not registered as a pesticide, as in don't use it as a pesticide because it is not registered as one.  Pesticides need to be reregistered every 15 years, so although oxalic acid had been registered as a pesticide in the past, no one had registered it as a pesticide in the 15 years before Brushy Mountain applied. 
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
-Kevin

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2018, 12:34:00 am »
@ beepawHi Phillip,
All pesticides sold or used in the United States must be registered by EPA.  At the time the "Registration Decision for the New Active Ingredient Oxalic Acid" was signed by Jack Housenger (2015), oxalic acid was not registered as a pesticide, as in don't use it as a pesticide because it is not registered as one.  Pesticides need to be reregistered every 15 years, so although oxalic acid had been registered as a pesticide in the past, no one had registered it as a pesticide in the 15 years before Brushy Mountain applied. 
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
-Kevin

Thanks Kevin, reeding  the report i understood this was required in the past.  But back to the present,  Since OA is now no longer considered a pesticide, as of 3/10/15  the date that Jack Housenger, Director Office of Pesticide Control. Signed the Registration Decision for the new Oxalic Acid, stating that OA is No longer classified as a pesticide.  Does it still have to be registered as such (pesticide) in order to legally be labeled and sold for bee use? The best answer that I have read comes from iddee. He explained that (chemicals) have to labeled and used for what intention the label states. Off label is illegal. Notice he didn't say pesticide. So here we are again, since Brushy Mountain is apparently the only legal distributor of labeled for bee use OA, What now? What does the American beekeeper do to protect his or her bees from Varroa Mites without breaking the law?  Thanks for your input Kevin.

Thanks, Phillip 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 12:47:04 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Beepah

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Re: Brushy Mountain bee farm
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2018, 11:38:17 am »
@ beepawHi Phillip,
All pesticides sold or used in the United States must be registered by EPA.  At the time the "Registration Decision for the New Active Ingredient Oxalic Acid" was signed by Jack Housenger (2015), oxalic acid was not registered as a pesticide, as in don't use it as a pesticide because it is not registered as one.  Pesticides need to be reregistered every 15 years, so although oxalic acid had been registered as a pesticide in the past, no one had registered it as a pesticide in the 15 years before Brushy Mountain applied. 
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/about-pesticide-registration
-Kevin

Thanks Kevin, reeding  the report i understood this was required in the past.  But back to the present,  Since OA is now no longer considered a pesticide, as of 3/10/15  the date that Jack Housenger, Director Office of Pesticide Control. Signed the Registration Decision for the new Oxalic Acid, stating that OA is No longer classified as a pesticide.  Does it still have to be registered as such (pesticide) in order to legally be labeled and sold for bee use? The best answer that I have read comes from iddee. He explained that (chemicals) have to labeled and used for what intention the label states. Off label is illegal. Notice he didn't say pesticide. So here we are again, since Brushy Mountain is apparently the only legal distributor of labeled for bee use OA, What now? What does the American beekeeper do to protect his or her bees from Varroa Mites without breaking the law?  Thanks for your input Kevin.

Thanks, Phillip

Hi Phillip,

Hopefully, this clarifies:

In the present, if you are claiming (selling, using) almost* any chemical as a pesticide then it must be registered. Pesticide registrations are not like patents.  If a pesticide is not re-regestered with the EPA before its present registration expires, then it does not in any way mean the active ingredient no longer has to be registered if it is later used as a pesticide again.  For example, if Bayer doesn't re-register Maxforce Impact Roach Gel Bait with the EPA in 2019, it does not mean that the EPA has decided that Clothianidin (the only active ingredient in that product) is no longer a pesticide.  The active ingredient Clothianidin will always require registration.

The statement you cite from Jack Housenger is not being read in full context.  The entire statement is:
"Oxalic acid (CAS# 144-62-7) was previously registered as an antimicrobial pesticide and EPA's Office of Pesticide Programs (OPP) issued a Reregistration Eligibility Decision (RED) in 1992.  Although oxalic acid is no longer registered as a pesticide, OPP has data in-house that describes the human health effects of the compound, the environmental fate and ecotoxicology."

Oxalic acid used to be registered as a pesticide.  The company that held the registration decided it did not want to spend the time and money on the re-registration process.  In 1992 the EPA reviewed the information they already had on oxalic acid and decided that oxalic acid could be re-registered if someone wanted to do so.  That re-registering company would not have to provide new toxicity data because the data the EPA already had was decided to be sufficient for future registration.  Mr. Housenger is indicating that oxalic acid in this registration application does not have to go through the process as if it was an unknown, new active ingredient chemical; the data they have on file from the previous registration and the oxalic acid RED report are sufficient for them to make a decision on the current registration application. 

The conclusion of his registration decision (2015): "In cooperation with our regulatory partners in Canada, the evaluation of the application for registration of oxalic acid was completed as a work share.  Considering the assessed risk to human health and the environment, the Agency concludes that oxlic acid meets the regulatory standard under the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA).  There are no outstanding data requirements for oxalic acid.  Therefore, the EPA is granting the unconditional registration of oxalic acide under Section 3(c)(5) of FIFRA."

Oxalic acid is a registered pesticide. What happens next legally, I don't know.
-Kevin


*There is one mechanism for an active ingredient chemical to be a pesticide and then not be a pesticide and that is inclusion on the EPA's "Minimum Risk Pesticides" list.  Oxalic acid is not on that list.

 

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