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Author Topic: Foundationless Comb Collapse  (Read 2732 times)

Offline CoolBees

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Foundationless Comb Collapse
« on: May 26, 2020, 07:45:22 pm »
Well ... it's 96 degrees in the shade - complete shade with maples around to keep things cool.  :grin:

It's well over 100 degrees in the sun ...

As I walked thru the Apiary I saw this:



Thats a Pollen Trap under a 3-box 8 frame medium hive. Very strong hive. Honey is pouring out the entrance, and running out in streams from under the Pollen Trap.  :shocked:  :angry:

A quick peek under the lid showed collapsed brood comb in the top box. More damage further down I'm guessing.

I shimmed open the top cover. Not much else i can do about it right now. I'd probably just make things worse in this heat, with the combs softened. ... it seems to be the only hive with this problem. ... any other ideas?

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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2020, 10:51:33 pm »
Thats a shame. Last season I moved a foundationless hive of a hot day and had the problem. I suggest acorn plastic foundation, or, and, skewers as taught by Paus. I scrapped the fishing line, takes to long and not always drawn in the center of the line even though the hive is level. For speed and convenience, plastic is the trick in my opinion. I am still learning but this is where I am now.




.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 11:33:12 pm by Ben Framed »
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Offline FloridaGardener

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2020, 12:15:46 am »
Aw.. I am sorry. 
I have been using 1 inch R-5 pink foam insulation under all my lids.  I made the lid rims longer and bought the tin top separately from Dadant.  So the R-5 fitan inside the Telescoping lid, and the inner cover (or propolis trap) stops the foam from suctioning up. Bees don?t have access to
it.

Makes a huge difference.  $20 for 4x 8? Pre-scored, easy use sheet at Home Depot. They call it Foamular One with the pink panther.

If you don?t care about fancy style, you can use a tile or brick to weight an overhanging sheet of The foam on top Of your existing lid.

Also - try a top entrance.  Even if the Bees don?t use it.  It?s the architectural principle of a cupola- which allows heat to escape.
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Offline CapnChkn

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2020, 04:53:07 am »
I started stringing my frames, without foundation, after I ended up breaking my brood combs out of the frames moving them.  I put a wax sheet, or a strip to give them a guide, and they hate the fishing line, I can verify that.

I just started wiring with some stainless 304L wire, and I'll see what that will do. 
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Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2020, 07:03:42 am »
Florida Gardner is on the right track'
Insulated lids make a big difference, we use  20mm foil board, 2 layers of sisilation foil with 20mm polystyrene.
Also paint the tin or top of the hive white to reflect heat.
We would also use a paler color for the woodware, again to not absorb heat.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2020, 08:37:27 am »
Did you have a small quake?  Maybe a disturbing animal that got chased away when the comb broke.  96-100 degrees should not be a problem for wax.  Any chance of vandals?
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2020, 11:50:29 am »
Phillip: I was wondering how your fishing line worked. Not too good - it sounds like. I'm trying to avoid foundation. The "skewers" you mention - I remember you discussing this a while back - but I don't think I paid attention ...  :grin:

FG: I might try some insulation. This is the 1st time I've had trouble, and only with 1 hive. The bees have a lot of white wax this spring - so I'm chewing on solutions now, for the future.

Oldbeavo: I've often wondered if the darker color on my wooden ware would cause a problem. Up till now it hasn't seemed to. ... it was a case of "what do I have available?"  :cheesy: (I've been collecting wax for wax-dipping the boxes in the future) ...

Capt': how much luck have you had with the 304 wire? ... and what diameter did you use? ... and how long have you been using it? ... from all the comments I've read, fishing line doesn't seem to work well most of the time, for most people - and it stretches, which wouldn't help much with extraction. 304 SS wire sounds better.

Ace: regarding a disturbance - you may be onto something there. Yesterday morning I had a large Velvet buck running the property with his mouth hanging open (sign of stress). (I closed all the accesses to the property on Sunday to keep the deer out). So some neighbor disturbed him, he jumped the fence, and was running around ... if he slammed into this hive - that would explain a lot. As for quakes - we get 4-10 a day (small) ... I didn't hear about a bigger one ... not that I listen much  :cheesy:

Thanks to all of you for the replies. My hope is that this is a 1-time instance. None of my other hives had a problem - so far. ...we shall see. :grin:

... now, my 1st job this morning is to go into that have and find how much damage there is ...
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2020, 11:57:52 am »
Quote from: CoolBees on May 27, 2020, 11:50:29 am
Phillip: I was wondering how your fishing line worked. Not too good - it sounds like. I'm trying to avoid foundation. The "skewers" you mention - I remember you discussing this a while back - but I don't think I paid attention ...  :grin:
Here's that conversation, if you'd like to refresh your memory. 
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=52614.0
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2020, 12:30:47 pm »
The fishing line worked pretty good except for what I mentioned above. The fishing line is a pain to install. (Takes too long). I switched to the skewers and like them much better. Using a drill I place four quick holes, two in the top and two in the bottom bar. Snip the skewers off just a little longer than the space between the top and bottom bar and snap them in place, no glue necessary. I experimented but settled on the two vertical skewers. If you want to go completely foundationless, in my opinion and from my experience, this is the way to go. The PAUS method. Thanks again Paus.

Phillip
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2020, 01:59:54 pm »
Here's what things looked like on the inside this morning  ...



All the comb in the top box separated at the top of the frames and fell sideways in one direction. The bottom of the combs were still attached to their respective frames. No comb was damaged/collapsed in the lower 2 boxes. However, honey had drenched the entire hive. I'd guess 60% of the bees were dead. The rest coated with honey, and unable to fly. I don't have much hope for the queen.  :angry:

By the look of things - I think Ace might have the closest answer: damage due to shock. ...
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2020, 02:05:58 pm »
Quote from: The15thMember on May 27, 2020, 11:57:52 am
Quote from: CoolBees on May 27, 2020, 11:50:29 am
Phillip: I was wondering how your fishing line worked. Not too good - it sounds like. I'm trying to avoid foundation. The "skewers" you mention - I remember you discussing this a while back - but I don't think I paid attention ...  :grin:
Here's that conversation, if you'd like to refresh your memory. 
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=52614.0

Thanks. Good information. You just bought the skewers from the grocery store?
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Offline CapnChkn

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2020, 02:08:26 pm »
Coolbees, I had no problems with getting the fishing line to work, it's the bees who objected.  I was using 30lb nylon, and it held.  When they build around it, it seems fine, but if there's an exposed line, they chew through it.  Or it breaks due to cold, or the roaches chew it.

I got a spool of 304L. 0.5 mm and have just wired a few frames with it right now.  The "L" in the formula is for "Light," meaning it has just enough Chromium to keep it stainless, but still leave it ductile.  I just started this year, so I don't have any good information yet.
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2020, 03:49:23 pm »
Very interesting Capt'. I'd definitely be curious to know how the wire works out for you over the next couple years.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2020, 04:24:56 pm »
Alan the last wooden skewers for me came from Dollar Tree. It was either 50 or 100 for a dollar. How can we beat that? Lol
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2020, 05:55:02 pm »
Quote from: CoolBees on May 27, 2020, 01:59:54 pm
Here's what things looked like on the inside this morning  ...



All the comb in the top box separated at the top of the frames and fell sideways in one direction. The bottom of the combs were still attached to their respective frames. No comb was damaged/collapsed in the lower 2 boxes. However, honey had drenched the entire hive. I'd guess 60% of the bees were dead. The rest coated with honey, and unable to fly. I don't have much hope for the queen.  :angry:

By the look of things - I think Ace might have the closest answer: damage due to shock. ...
Oh man, that is nasty.  I don't envy you that clean up job.  What a shame. . . .  :sad:
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2020, 06:25:29 pm »
Quote from: The15thMember on May 27, 2020, 05:55:02 pm
Oh man, that is nasty.  I don't envy you that clean up job.  What a shame. . . .  :sad:
Trial-by-fire ... my favorite!   :shocked: :cheesy: :cheesy: :cool:
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Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2020, 07:00:12 pm »
Cool bees
If I was going to do foundationless, I would do what we do for comb honey, just put a piece of timber, 3/8 x 3/8 across the frame, horizontal in the centre. Staple in each end and done.
We coat the inside surfaces with melted wax to encourage uniformity.
We do cheat alittle as we put them between drawn frames to start them, never done a whole box of them.
If we come across a frame extracting that we don't want to keep we just put it through the uncapper and then spin it out. doesn't blow out.
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2020, 10:34:44 pm »
Alan, sorry about the bees and the queen,  the bees will clean that up, if enough survived.  You really get 4 quakes a day?  Anyway, still early in the year and just one split from being able to have another hive.  I am thankful the top was only effected. I Hope the rest of the season is fruitful.
Blessings
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2020, 11:21:03 pm »
I thought the bees were able to cool off their hives, and that they benefitted from the higher heat of being in the sun, for beetle reasons. In middle Georgia, is it better to keep them in the shade rather than insulate the tops?
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Offline FloridaGardener

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Re: Foundationless Comb Collapse
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2020, 12:57:47 am »
In Georgia I would handle like N Florida: morning sun - afternoon shade. 

Think of your car sitting in the sun all day.  Is it a hot box when you get in it at 4 pm? Hotter than outside, right?
Then compare if it where it was parked was shaded by a tree about halfway through the day.  Hmm.
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