Laying worker question again

[davers]

I know the topic has been debated before but I had a thought that maybe someone could comment on. I have two hives that are queenless that I need to take care of. Without adding brood what has
the experience been with shaking the hive out about 50 yards away, then replace the hive back in the original place and have the foragers fly back,install a new queen in a cage and have the bees chew out the candy and release the queen. I would put back in some comb without the brood for the queen to lay on.  Thanks

[Acebird]

My thought is you are wasting a good queen.  Make a good split from a good hive and add your queen.  I don't think a queen with a few foragers will make it and if you replace the equipment you might just get the laying workers back.  They can fly and they can smell.

[erbs honey]

My thought is you are wasting a good queen.  Make a good split from a good hive and add your queen.  I don't think a queen with a few foragers will make it and if you replace the equipment you might just get the laying workers back.  They can fly and they can smell.

.
I've heard that laying workers cannot fly as they are full of eggs...

[brewbush]

I know the topic has been debated before but I had a thought that maybe someone could comment on. I have two hives that are queenless that I need to take care of. Without adding brood what has
the experience been with shaking the hive out about 50 yards away, then replace the hive back in the original place and have the foragers fly back,install a new queen in a cage and have the bees chew out the candy and release the queen. I would put back in some comb without the brood for the queen to lay on.  Thanks

Assuming it is a laying worker, I have just shaken them out in a field and forgot about the hive.  If I had the resources I would try to add a frame of brood/eggs and see if they raise their own queen.  But in my situations the number of bees at the laying worker stage had dwindled down, so just sucked it up and dumped them.

One good thing is it gave me drawn comb to use elsewhere.

[Acebird]

My thought is you are wasting a good queen.  Make a good split from a good hive and add your queen.  I don't think a queen with a few foragers will make it and if you replace the equipment you might just get the laying workers back.  They can fly and they can smell.

.
I've heard that laying workers cannot fly as they are full of eggs...

However it has been discovered that many laying workers are able to fly normally.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/layingworkers.html
Virgin queens are full of eggs also.

[sc-bee]

Dump it and don't waste time or resources...

[davers]

Thanks for all your responses.  I will dump them.  That's the overall opinion.

[little john]

If you put any box on the old stand, or anything within a few feet of that stand, the foragers you dump will return there.  That's 100% guaranteed. (well, unless you dump 'em miles away ...)

In practice, I find that laying workers don't make it back to the original stand along with those foragers.  Laying Workers may be able to fly (I'm not entirely sure of that), but as they haven't been out foraging, they won't have been on orientation flights.  So - in practice, they stay where they're dumped - all huddled up together.

Just foragers and a queen ?  Yes, that's do-able.  It takes a couple of days for foragers to revert back to functioning as nurse bees - but they will do that.  Foragers and a frame of BIAS will also work, but a mated queen is better (quicker).
LJ

[Acebird]

LJ I have read posts where nucs are vulnerable.  I don't know what happens but the result is the nuc loses their queen and it ends up laying worker much quicker than it would normally.  Maybe the foragers take over the hive and go back and get the laying workers at the dump site and guide them to the nuc they took over.
Standard advice is to dump the hive a good distance away from your weak hives.  Some might say close down the entrance so it can be defended.

[little john]

Brian - regardless of the distance at which the bees are dumped - short of dumping them several miles away (outside of their flying range) - there's absolutely no way of stopping foragers from returning to the position of their old stand - it's impossible.  Just try doing it and see what happens.
And - if they don't find a hive at that exact position, then they'll begin hunting around.  Should they locate a hive nearby, then they'll try to gain entrance to it. That's classic homing behaviour - an essential characteristic of the forager bee. Whether you dump the bees ten yards away, or a hundred - it makes absolutely no difference to those bees.  But Laying Workers are not forager bees.

If you do an Internet search, you'll read that many people successfully dump-out 10 to 20 yards in front of the problem hive.  I wouldn't argue with those sort of figures. 10 yards is plenty.

You talk of 'Standard Advice' - I know what Good Advice is, and I know what Bad Advice is ... but I ain't never yet heard of Standard Advice.  Who was it, I wonder, who got to assert that 'standard' ? 
LJ

[Acebird]

You talk of 'Standard Advice' - I know what Good Advice is, and I know what Bad Advice is ... but I ain't never yet heard of Standard Advice.  Who was it, I wonder, who got to assert that 'standard' ? 
LJ

Ok I probably said it wrong.  Maybe I should have said common advice.
I am not convinced that it doesn't make any difference.  It could be that at a farther distance the foragers get distributed to more than one hive as they circle around so they don't overpower a weak one.  I don't know but I have read posts that claimed the laying worker hive can take over a queen right hive into a laying worker hive by dumping too close.  I can't prove the posts  are correct but I can heed the warning.