Foundation? Starter Strip? Plastic? Wax?

[Captain776]

I had waxed and wired frames and frames of plastic.
The girls are not interested to build much on either one, zero on plastic, but did start building out the wax, but very slowly.
What I did notice was........the girls are amazingly fast to build from the flat bottom of the frame feeder and all the way down.
That gave me the idea to TRY foundationless.
I think.......the groove in the center at the top is all they need to find the center, in just a few days, they jumped on that foundationless frame and had it 50% built out, nice and straight.
From now on for me, I am going foundationless.
Fat beeman cautioned me not to put a whole box of foundationless frames because they may do cross comb and to put one built out frame in the Middle to prevent that.
I will heed that advice.

It appears to me from here and other Forums whether you use wax or plastic, it slows them down until they decide to get on it, but they seem to feel compelled to get right on a flat new surface between frames.

Thoughts and comments?

Bruce

[cao]

It's more natural and easier for them to draw it out themselves.  When they are hanging from the frame they are building both sides at the same time.  They can warm the area enough to make the wax easier to mold.  With foundation(whether wax or plastic) it is more of a repair job.  They are working on one side and the wax isn't as soft so it is harder to shape. 

Fat beeman cautioned me not to put a whole box of foundationless frames because they may do cross comb and to put one built out frame in the Middle to prevent that.
I will heed that advice.

That is good advice especially if adding box to the top.  They will sometimes start building from the bottom(where there are no guides) and work their way up.  That's where the drawn frame(ladder) helps out.  It gets more bees near the top so they can hang from the guides to build the comb.  It is not as much of a problem if you add an empty box to the bottom.  They have the frames above them to guide there way.

[Bush_84]

 Yeah you definitely want to also give them a comb guide. This can either be a small strip of wood glued to the frame or Some frames even come with a strip that you peel off and can just be turned on its end.  I primarily use foundation less but have also used some plastic foundation. The bees definitely seem to take better to an empty space rather than foundation. As has been said Bees will do much better if you have at least one drawn out comb as a guide.you should also make sure that their hive stand is perfectly level because if it is not you will get cricket comb. The biggest cluster and draw their comb based on gravity.

[Bush_84]

Drone cells will be the bane of your existence.

[minz]

Not certain of your set up but put the foundation strip in the center of the brood nest, not on the outside. The drawn frames should be their guide. If you put it to the outside they will draw all drone, it takes less wax / work and stores just as much honey.

[Oldbeavo]

Are you drawing free form in the brood box or in the super. We purposely draw free form in the super to sell as comb honey, but they will always draw drone comb in the super.
How or what they draw on is so dependant on the nectar flow, in a big flow they will draw 8 frames of wooden frames and wax coated plastic foundation very quickly. One hive this season drew out 8 frames, filled them with honey fully capped in 16 days.

[Joe D]

I like to take a super or brood box of drawn comb, put have in another box and put foundationless frames in every other space. Helps them to draw straight and they will draw the foundationless fast.  Back a couple of years ago I first tried wood frames with waxed plastic foundation, most of my hives didn't want to draw them and one didn't the first year.  They have got them drawn now but I like still like to get them to draw new foundationless frames.

Good luck to you and your bees,

Joe D

[JackM]

Personally, I think you are going to get lots of opinions on this.  What works for you is best. 

Myself I am just starter strip and let them build on their own, when flow is good it fills fast.

I agree drone comb sucks, but so does honey comb, it also is wider than the perfectly drawn brood comb.

One thing I do that I think helps is put 9 frames in an 8 frame box.  Two swipes with a block plane on the mating edges of the frames on each side makes a fairly tight fit, proplis is harder to break free that way.  Much less oversized unequal comb.  Obviously get this set up before bees are in the  box.

[little john]

To get 100% worker comb drawn out - use nucs to draw the combs out, or if you're running full-sized hives, then wait until the drones have been kicked out in late summer.  In both cases the bees have no interest in creating drone cells. 
Then, when you have your worker combs nicely drawn-out, if you put an undrawn frame into a full-sized hive - at any time other than late summer - they'll oblige by drawing-out 100% drone combs - or at least combs comprised largely of drone cells.
LJ

[Bush_84]

To get 100% worker comb drawn out - use nucs to draw the combs out, or if you're running full-sized hives, then wait until the drones have been kicked out in late summer.  In both cases the bees have no interest in creating drone cells. 
Then, when you have your worker combs nicely drawn-out, if you put an undrawn frame into a full-sized hive - at any time other than late summer - they'll oblige by drawing-out 100% drone combs - or at least combs comprised largely of drone cells.
LJ

That is what I have read about Nucs and from multiple people. This year I am expanding my operation and filling as many Nucs as I can. So I hope to use Nucs for comb building and brood factories. So I also plan on using Nucs to build out worker comb as well. Until then it's deal with it and cut it out when I can. I'm not swimming in excess comb so I make due with what I have.

[BeeMaster2]

When you use plastic foundation you need to fill all of the frames in that super with foundation. If you mix them, the bees will prefer to make their own comb without foundation.

[bwallace23350]

I have never had a problem with any frames that I have tried. I guess I have been lucky.

[Michael Bush]

You will want to stack the deck to get the best results.  That means some kind of comb guide

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#combguide

rather than just empty frames.

Also putting empty frames between straight drawn comb is very helpful.

[Captain776]

Thank you all for your replies.
Like Bush 84 said above, LOTS of Drone comb, it would be great if they filled it with honey but it has eggs n Larvae in it.
I have surrendered on Foundationless and will use wax starter Strip.
It is time for a second Brood Box on 3 hives this week, I am prepping the equipment.
Go through the lower Brood Box and check the 6 or 7 Foundationless frames I put in, based on what they look like if I remove n replace or leave them.

When I add the second Brood Box, should I move a frame or 2 up to second box or just put all 8 frames with starter Strip?

Bruce

[Michael Bush]

>When I add the second Brood Box, should I move a frame or 2 up to second box or just put all 8 frames with starter Strip?

I would move a frame or two up.

[Captain776]

Thanks Michael, that is what I thought.
Stained 2 boxes and painted the other a few days ago.
I will let them off Gas a few more days before putting in service.
Getting ready.
I enjoy learning more n more each day, I wish I had stumbled on this hobby 30 yrs ago

[bwallace23350]

THanks Mr. Bush. I am going to try to get them to use some foundationless frames on my next hive./