Some Questions re: Brood Boxes

[RickLR]

I'm not sure if "Brood Boxes" is the correct term, but in any case . . . .

In First Lessons in Beekeeping, the author mentions the two options for the “base configuration” as: 1) one deep for brood, one medium (or small, doesn’t really say) for stores with a queen excluder in between, and 2) two deeps.  The thought from the author is that the one deep, one medium is the norm for warm climates, two deep the norm for colder climates.

The Backyard Beekeeper really just says go with three medium eight frame boxes, the end -- the book’s general presentation is less about “here are your options” and more about “here’s what you do.”  (Which is fine; I’m reading several different books to get various opinions.)

Beekeeping for Dummies also says use two deeps in cold climates and one in climates “where cold winters just don’t happen.”

(I’ve ordered The Idiot’s Guide to Beekeeping, but it doesn’t arrive until next week.)

Three questions around the hive construction:

1) I live in North MS, but I don’t know if that’s considered as being “warm climate” or “where cold winters just don’t happen.”  Maybe the authors consider Brazil as warm climate area, and Central Florida as where you begin to have cold winters, bee-wise.  Right now I’m calling it warm climate (based on how I begin to sweat when outside in late March, and continue to do so until sometime in October  :) ) and plan to go with one deep, one medium with the queen excluder as suggested by Keith S. Delaplane.  Am I wrong in this idea?

2) In reading on off-season work, there’s often the suggestion to swap the two deeps prior to the spring kick-off, but if I have one deep, one medium, I can’t.  Since I removed the queen excluder in the fall/winter to allow the queen to move up with the colony, how do you entice her back down into the deep to put the excluder back in place? Just find her and move her?

3) I purchased the “Gold” special from Long Lanes Honeybee Farm, and it included two hives that each consists of two deep boxes and one medium (all with frames & foundation).  Given I’m starting in late April (when the bees arrive), and given my choice of one deep, one medium, how many medium supers (the choice I’m going with at present) should I expect to need by the end of the year?  I’ll use the other two deeps to start additional hives next year (if all works as hoped, I’ll move to four or more hives next year).

4) (Bonus Question, just occurred to me) If I use just one deep for brood, can I expect the bees to be more likely to swarm (would seem so) and is this something I should worry about this first year?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Rick

[FRAMEshift]

The Backyard Beekeeper really just says go with three medium eight frame boxes, the end -- the book’s general presentation is less about “here are your options” and more about “here’s what you do.”  (Which is fine; I’m reading several different books to get various opinions.)

The bees are not that fussy about how many or what size boxes you use, as long as they have enough room.  But for your own convenience, I suggest standardizing on one size box.  You can use deeps but they are pretty heavy.  If you want to stick with Langstroth hives, I would say mediums are better and 8 frame mediums are optimal.

(I’ve ordered The Idiot’s Guide to Beekeeping, but it doesn’t arrive until next week.)

Excellent book!

1) I live in North MS, but I don’t know if that’s considered as being “warm climate” or “where cold winters just don’t happen.”  Maybe the authors consider Brazil as warm climate area, and Central Florida as where you begin to have cold winters, bee-wise.  Right now I’m calling it warm climate (based on how I begin to sweat when outside in late March, and continue to do so until sometime in October  :) ) and plan to go with one deep, one medium with the queen excluder as suggested by Keith S. Delaplane.  Am I wrong in this idea?

You are in a warm climate area, but this business about one deep/one medium is a bit silly.  You can use 2 deeps or 3 mediums and you can add more space if they need it.  It's better to have one size box and one size of frame so they are all interchangeable.   We don't use a queen excluder.  You aren't going to get much brood on full flow honey frames and they won't hurt anything if you do.

2) In reading on off-season work, there’s often the suggestion to swap the two deeps prior to the spring kick-off, but if I have one deep, one medium, I can’t.  Since I removed the queen excluder in the fall/winter to allow the queen to move up with the colony, how do you entice her back down into the deep to put the excluder back in place? Just find her and move her?

Does it matter where she is?  The brood nest will move up and down as needed.  It's not worth the effort to try to over-control what the bees do.

3) I purchased the “Gold” special from Long Lanes Honeybee Farm, and it included two hives that each consists of two deep boxes and one medium (all with frames & foundation -- see photo if added by mods).  Given I’m starting in late April (when the bees arrive), and given my choice of one deep, one medium, how many medium supers (the choice I’m going with at present) should I expect to need by the end of the year?  I’ll use the other two deeps to start additional hives next year (if all works as hoped, I’ll move to four or more hives next year).

If you are going with medium supers and you are already using one medium in the brood nest, why not just go with all mediums.  I know this can be confusing but it's better if you standardize from the beginning.  Having more than one size frame is a headache in the long run.  I'm not saying you should throw away your deeps.  Use what you've got but don't buy more.

4) (Bonus Question, just occurred to me) If I use just one deep for brood, can I expect the bees to be more likely to swarm (would seem so) and is this something I should worry about this first year?

You will want to have more space than one deep.  Read Michael Bush's website about opening up the brood nest to prevent swarming.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm#opening

 While you're there, read his suggestions about standardizing on a single frame size.    http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#uniformframesize

[RickLR]

FRAMEshift:

I have been looking on standardizing on the eight frame equipment long term (have read Michael Bush's info as well as the strong recommendation in The Backyard Beekeeper book), but will likely do the first two or four hives with what I have.

Since I have four deeps already purchased (with frames), I figured on the first four hives using the 1 deep, 1 medium base, and ten-frame equipment, then possibly standardizing the rest on eight frame mediums.  The other option was two deep on two hives (ten frame equipment), then consider switching to all eight frame medium equipment after the first two.  That would, of course, give me either two or four that would always be "different" from any others down the road, but I hate the thought of the wasted purchase and having to repurchase hive equipment when I've already purchased hive equipment.  It also gives me my own personal side by side comparison as to what's better, what's best.

In my admittedly early, newbie, no experience view, my plan is to work up to ten or twelve Langstroth-style hives (whether eight or ten frame), along with experimenting with small cell hives, TBHs, queen raising, and whatever else might cross my mind.  Of course, if they all die out every winter for the first three or four years, I might just take up golf.  :)

Rick

[iddee]

Use your first year to make 2 hives with 2 deeps each. It will give you a better chance of success while learning. The second year, split them to 4 single deep hives with supers on each. NO EXCLUDER.

By the third year, you will know what you want and if it's not deeps, you can sell them and recoup all your expenses and buy what you want at that time. The 10 frame deeps will sell for more, quicker.

[FRAMEshift]

In my admittedly early, newbie, no experience view, my plan is to work up to ten or twelve Langstroth-style hives (whether eight or ten frame), along with experimenting with small cell hives, TBHs, queen raising, and whatever else might cross my mind.  Of course, if they all die out every winter for the first three or four years, I might just take up golf.  :)

You have done your homework much better than most newbies.  Use the equipment you have for the first year.  You will find out how happy you are lifting 10 frame deeps.  If you are going to end up with ten or twelve hives, the purchases you have made so far will be a small part of the total investment, so no matter what you decide, you will not have wasted much.  And iddee is right that you will have an easier time selling 10 frame deeps.

[jmblakeney]

(I’ve ordered The Idiot’s Guide to Beekeeping, but it doesn’t arrive until next week.

This is the best book, IMO, that I have read on beekeeping.  The author, Dean, is on the forums here too. 
I'm sorry I can't offer you any advice b/c this is my first year beekeeping as well.  But, I would consider your area a "warm climate".

Good luck,
James

[cam]

I was out cleaning deadouts in 6" of snow today. It was 50° for the first time in a few weeks. 0° 2 nights ago. So I think you're in a warm area...

[sc-bee]

Stick with all mediums. I wish I had. Everything is interchangeable and it makes opening up the brood nest far easier- you are not stuck looking to backfill a deep brood chamber and have no frames to fit. Of course push comes to shove and you are in a pinch put a medium frame in the deep until you can do better iof you get in a tight to open the brood nest.

You can raise and sell queens using mediums but as said above most nucs that are sold are deep frames.

Why so many deeps around because it was the way granddad did it!

Use your deeps and buy all mediums after that--- save your back and everything fit!

The bees could care less what box you put them in the convenience is for us :)

[Acebird]

The 10 frame deeps will sell for more, quicker.

I have always used this rule of thumb.  Anything used in a hobby is worth 1/2 of what you paid for it and you can't always get what it is worth.  If you start out with lower start up costs you will loose less if you should decide to give it up.  Many older beeks who may have been commercial in the day are now hobbyist.  They worked 10 frame deeps in the day but now are using 8 frame mediums.  Most beginners kits are going to be two deeps and two mediums.  If I were starting from ground zero today with the intention of two hives I would get one beginners 8 frame and a medium expansion kit which is two mediums.  That will make two hives with one deep on the bottom and two suppers.  Half way though the season if things go like gang busters you can decide if you want to get more supers when equipment is cheaper.

[RickLR]

Thanks for all the replies (been out of pocket these past two weeks).  Iddee, that's kind of what I figured I'd do, ending up using the four deeps across four hives (though I'm not sure about using/not using the queen excluder).  My primary goal this first year will be survival through the winter (though I'd like at least a little honey out of the process).

James (jmblakeney), I finished reading The Idiots Guide to Beekeeping and I had planned/hoped to go treatment free, but I've also read here and elsewhere that if I'm purchasing bees that have normally been treated they will have little chance of survival going immediately to treatment free.  As the bees I purchased (to arrive late April) weren't advertised as treatment free, I'm assuming they were treated (but I will be checking).  So I'm in a bit of a quandary on that one.  It was an informative book, though.

Rick