Comb honey. A journey of learning

[The15thMember]

Yes Member and Cao, building on those thoughts, I am thinking the wider the area to climb up, the more bees that can reach the working point at the same time, (having more room to work), making the whole situation more efficient?

Probably so, but I was actually thinking about from the opposite direction.  If you wanted to use less of a starter strip, I think the way to go would be to make it long and skinny and dangling down toward the mouth of the jar, perhaps slightly off-center so the bees could reach it from the rim, as opposed to shallow and wide and deep in the jar. 

[Ben Framed]

Yes Member and Cao, building on those thoughts, I am thinking the wider the area to climb up, the more bees that can reach the working point at the same time, (having more room to work), making the whole situation more efficient?

Probably so, but I was actually thinking about from the opposite direction.  If you wanted to use less of a starter strip, I think the way to go would be to make it long and skinny and dangling down toward the mouth of the jar, perhaps slightly off-center so the bees could reach it from the rim, as opposed to shallow and wide and deep in the jar.

Maybe so! 

[Ben Framed]

Maybe you and I along with the rest of us showing interest in what Les is doing, can do the same, (continue experimenting). It is good for each of us to share our ideas. The more good thoughts, input, and advice we each share with one another, the more avenues each of us can pursue in our experiments, achieving forward advancement of a better product... Keep up the good work Les! Keep the ideas coming in friends!

Phillip

[Lesgold]

Just to add to the conversation. When I took the photo yesterday, it was early in the morning, it was cool and the bees were just heading out. I decided to have another look in the middle of the day and there was a lot more activity in all off the jars. The bees were all over the long strip of foundation, were actively working on the starter strips and there were quite a few bees in the jars with the melted beeswax in the bottom. They easily crawled up the side of the jars so access wasn?t a problem. When they got to the wax at the bottom of the jar, they just walked around as if they were looking for somewhere to start. Do they need the help in relation to a starter strip or will they begin drawing comb eventually themselves? I am guessing that they would eventually but I?d be interested in your thoughts. It will also be interesting to see if the small starter strips catch up to the larger piece of foundation in relation to filling the cavity with drawn comb. The idea of a long skinny starter strip also sounds interesting. It may actually attract the bees. There appears to be so many options to try. Hopefully quite a few people can experiment with this method and discover little tricks that improve the method. Getting back to my opening comment, any ideas as to why there would be less activity in the jars early in the morning?

[The15thMember]

They easily crawled up the side of the jars so access wasn?t a problem. When they got to the wax at the bottom of the jar, they just walked around as if they were looking for somewhere to start. Do they need the help in relation to a starter strip or will they begin drawing comb eventually themselves? I am guessing that they would eventually but I?d be interested in your thoughts.

Oh that's good to know. As long as they can walk on the glass, I think they'll probably take to it eventually.  Obviously something hanging down vertically will probably induce them to draw faster, as that's the basis on which all starter strips for frames are founded, but I'd imagine they'd get going on the flat wax at some point.  There are no starter strips in hollow trees. 

Getting back to my opening comment, any ideas as to why there would be less activity in the jars early in the morning?

What are your nighttime temps like right now?  Glass is a good insulator, so is it possible that the interior of the jars is still cool in the morning, which is making the bees less interested in them until they warm up? 

[Lesgold]

Hi Member. I think you nailed it. Just after making that comment I thought I?d go and check the jars. It?s early morning here and I went down to the bees before the sun came up. When I took the lid off and had a look inside, I noticed that only a few bees were in the jars. The other thing that I did notice was the temperature inside the box. It was quite cool. Looking through the jars I could see that the bees were waiting just below the opening, ready to climb up. Our overnight temperature dropped to about 16 degrees (it may have been cooler at the hives) and the temperature in the box covering the jars was only slightly warmer than that. As the day warms up, the bees will climb up again. Does this mean that a loss in temperature will slow the process? There appears to be a lot more to this process than what we initially thought.

[Ben Framed]

The15thMember
Obviously something hanging down vertically will probably induce them to draw faster, as that's the basis on which all starter strips for frames are founded,

Agreed, plus the starter strip also serves the 'equally' important function as a 'guide',  directing from what point we wish for our bees to draw this comb. In this case, the center of our jars. The starter strip should insure uniformness of comb building throughout the jar system..

Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Lesgold
Does this mean that a loss in temperature will slow the process? There appears to be a lot more to this process than what we initially thought.

Good point and possibly that the temps will slow the process. Dependent on how fast the temperatures rise during the day and the  Suns' infrared heat factor involved.  Maybe the bees will keep the jar comb warm enough anyway? Heat rises and the heat should be basically tapped or 'retained' 'if you will', in the jar once it rises to that point....

Phillip

[Lesgold]

I?ve just come up from the workshop. Members comments got me thinking about the temperature issue. Either decreasing the open space or increasing the number of bees in that space could improve the situation. Jurassic?s higher density of jars could possibly help or a shallower super covering the jars could  reduce some of the heat loss. I?ve just cut up some styrofoam to act as an insulator. I?ll go down now and fit it. Will take a pic when it?s in place. Always good to try things out to see what happens. Members comment about not having foundation also got me thinking. I had a few pieces of newly formed bridging comb sitting ready to be melted down. Thought I?d put a piece in a jar to see what would happen. When I applied some heat to the bottom of the jar, it started to rapidly melt away. It was actually quite funny. I was blowing onto the bottom of the jar to try to cool it quickly as my pyramid of comb slowly dissolved into a blob of wax. Managed to salvage a small piece. At least it would be a starting point for the bees.

[Lesgold]

Popped some styrofoam around the sides of the box



And then put a lid on it.



Will see what happens over the next couple of days.

[Ben Framed]

Lesgold
Getting back to my opening comment, any ideas as to why there would be less activity in the jars early in the morning?

Again, temperature possibly? What does your bees do in the the earlier morning in a similar circumstance as viewed through an observation hive?

Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Lesgold
Popped some styrofoam around the sides of the box

Looks good!

Phillip

[Lesgold]

I suppose the difference in an observation hive is the bees can still cluster in numbers whereas in a small confined jar space, the bees would be relying only on the heat that rises from below. I am only guessing and clutching at straws here. It?s all new territory. I am sure we will learn as we go. It?s a pity that we have opposing seasons and can?t conduct experiments and compare notes as we go. I look forward to seeing what other people come up with during your spring flow.

[Ben Framed]

Thanks Les, I did not phrase my question clearly. What my meaning was; Are the bees less active during cool mornings when in an observation hive, similar as the slow activity that you witnessed with the jar hive set up? In other words, are bees naturally less active in the comb area on cool mornings regardless of the type of hive they reside?

Phillip 

[Ben Framed]

Lesgold
I am sure we will learn as we go. It?s a pity that we have opposing seasons and can?t conduct experiments and compare notes as we go. I look forward to seeing what other people come up with during your spring flow.

It won't be to terribly long now. You have came up with some really good stuff Les! I look forward to seeing what we as a group can contribute as well.

Cheers,

Phillip

[G3farms]

Some really really good points made by everybody for sure!

I agree about the cooler temps in the morning, but also there is not any nectar coming into the hive so they really don't have anything to work with either. I would think sometime in the very early morning hours all of the pollen and nectar would have been put away.......just my thinking anyway.

I do like the insulation you added to the hive, I think that will work better.

I thought of another way 
What if the jars could be laid on their sides? with the starter strip or bead of wax on the side of the jar. Was thinking they could build the comb quicker since they would not have as far to climb up the side of the jar and more comb (starter strip) would be exposed (the length of the jar vs the diameter of the jar).

[Ben Framed]

G3 thumbs up for the picture under your name....👍🏻

[Lesgold]

Good point G3. But can I throw it back to you. Have you ever put a super on a strong hive late in the afternoon and come back to check for some reason early the next morning? They seem to get a lot done over night.

Jars on their side? Interesting thought. My brain is hurting again just thinking about it. It would be a fantastic design problem as there could be quite a few different approaches worth trying. Would love to see some concept sketches on that approach. 

[Ben Framed]

Some really really good points made by everybody for sure!

I agree about the cooler temps in the morning, but also there is not any nectar coming into the hive so they really don't have anything to work with either. I would think sometime in the very early morning hours all of the pollen and nectar would have been put away.......just my thinking anyway.

I do like the insulation you added to the hive, I think that will work better.

I thought of another way 
What if the jars could be laid on their sides? with the starter strip or bead of wax on the side of the jar. Was thinking they could build the comb quicker since they would not have as far to climb up the side of the jar and more comb (starter strip) would be exposed (the length of the jar vs the diameter of the jar).

I like that too! Has to help....

I suppose the real advantage of jars placed as shown by Jurassic, top down, is more jars per level as the picture shows in reply 111. And again in reply 129 by Lesgold, real space savers and a grand opportunity for more production per box. Keep the good ideas and questions coming G3farms. Appreciate you chiming in!

Phillip

[G3farms]

G3 thumbs up for the picture under your name....👍🏻

Some of last years chink honey, that sells out very quick anymore.
For years I could not get in the right rhythm. I would make chink honey and nobody wanted any, then next year would not make any and everybody wanted a case or two.

Good point G3. But can I throw it back to you. Have you ever put a super on a strong hive late in the afternoon and come back to check for some reason early the next morning? They seem to get a lot done over night.

Jars on their side? Interesting thought. My brain is hurting again just thinking about it. It would be a fantastic design problem as there could be quite a few different approaches worth trying. Would love to see some concept sketches on that approach. 

Yep I have to look, just can't help it sometimes. They are funny critters for sure and can really surprise you sometimes.

I can see a couple of ways to lay them on the side, but would limited to a certain size jar.
Just crazy thinking!